The Quakers

[JIP]

Well I have some stuffs for a Quaker (esp. George Fox ) though..... not today though...but just this for starters..

"Bible Verses are Referred to as Scriptures,not the Word of God."

[Innerlight]

Well Bible verses are Holy Scripture wouldn't you say?

Different Quakers have different views about the Bible but I build my viewpoint around what the early Quakers taught;

The early Quakers (George Fox etc) rejected the mainstream Protestant idea of Sola scriptura and believed that Christ, instead of the Bible, is the Word of God; Robert Barclay wrote in his Apology that the scriptures

"are only a declaration of the fountain, and not the fountain itself, therefore they are not to be esteemed the principal ground of all Truth and knowledge, nor yet the adequate primary rule of faith and manners"

Similarly, George Fox recounted an incident in his Journal in which a minister claimed that the scriptures were authoritative, Fox

"...was commanded to tell them God did not dwell in temples made with hands. But I told them what it was, namely, the Holy Spirit, by which the holy men of God gave forth the scriptures, whereby opinions, religions and judgements were to be tried; for it led into all Truth, and so gave the knowledge of all Truth"

Early Friends believed that Christ would never lead them in ways that contradicted the Bible; this belief prevented conflicts between Friends' leadings and their understanding of the Bible and although not all Friends would agree with the early Quakers statements I personally do

I hope this answers your question JIP and I hope you have a great birthday

[JIP]

Originally Posted by Innerlight

Well Bible verses are Holy Scripture wouldn't you say?



I hope this answers your question JIP and I hope you have a great birthday

Well Innerlight do you know the essay I am pointing to. That was shocking to read. I will bring it up later on this thread for discussion. I was more a Quaker till I read that.

Thank you Innerlight I will.

Be Blessed
JIP

[Innerlight]

Hi JIP

No, I do not know which 'essay' you are referring to but I would be interested to know...

[JIP]

Hey Innerlight.... Its this one
http://www.hallvworthington.com/voicemain.html

Read the full of "My sheep hear My voice"

[Innerlight]

Hi JIP

I would like to start by saying that I am new to Quakerism therefore my knowledge about their history of theological views is currently limited (hence the 'disclaimer' in my signature)

I have come across the Hall Worthington website before and would like to stress that I have not read through all of it (I'm sure you noticed there is alot of info on that website) so I cannot say whether or not its views agree with my own views 100%. The website is not officially representative of the modern Quaker movement (in Britain at least) so please do not assume whatever you read on that site is in line with current Quaker views...

However I will tell you a little about the traditional Quaker standpoint on the Bible and my own; Quakers believe that the Bible is a very important book, they read it and use the knowledge within its pages to lead a life as God would want it. They do however view the Bible for exactly what it is; a book. Quakers are not united in the opinion that the Book is the exact, divine word of God himself. Quakers feel that the book was written by ordinary men under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Therefore they feel that the words contained within the pages, though truthful, are not beyond being questioned by someone using discernment through the Holy Spirit (in other words thoughts directed by Gods direct influence)

Questioning and investigating rather than just accepting can strengthen faith rather than weaken it.

Quakers try to have as closer realtionship with God as possible, they invite His influence into every facet of their lives and do not like to just accept things without first investigating it with the spirit of Jesus Christ to guide them. They believe Jesus would not mislead them into believing something that wasn't true.

Quakers do not think people should just say without thinking 'The Bible says this so thats all there is to it' but should think about the issues themselves, ask God about it and judge based upon God guiding them. The truth is different for different people.

Personal experience of God is vital...without it Christianity is nothing. Christianity is a notion not a way.

For my own part I try to read the Bible as often as I can, I think it is a very important book which I carry around with me when I travel and often refer to it when I am afraid or worried about something but I also understand that loving Jesus Christ and allowing God into your life is about more than just reading the teachings in the Bible. The Bible is an excellent tool for learning about Jesus Christ, his life and teachings but ultimately I lead life according to the guidance of the spirit of Christ himself. Jesus is always with me, he never leaves me, he always has time for me, he loves all of us eqaully and never turns his back on us

I hope that answers your questions. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have more. I want to build bridges and understanding between the Quakers and other Christian groups

[JIP]

Originally Posted by Innerlight

Hi JIP..(1) I would like to start by saying that I am new to Quakerism therefore my knowledge about their history of theological views is currently limited (hence the 'disclaimer' in my signature)
I have come across the Hall Worthington website before and would like to stress that I have not read through all of it (I'm sure you noticed there is alot of info on that website) so I cannot say whether or not its views agree with my own views 100%. The website is not officially representative of the modern Quaker movement (in Britain at least) so please do not assume whatever you read on that site is in line with current Quaker views...

(2) However I will tell you a little about the traditional Quaker standpoint on the Bible and my own; Quakers believe that the Bible is a very important book, they read it and use the knowledge within its pages to lead a life as God would want it. They do however view the Bible for exactly what it is; a book. Quakers are not united in the opinion that the Book is the exact, divine word of God himself. Quakers feel that the book was written by ordinary men under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Therefore they feel that the words contained within the pages, though truthful, are not beyond being questioned by someone using discernment through the Holy Spirit (in other words thoughts directed by Gods direct influence)

(3) Questioning and investigating rather than just accepting can strengthen faith rather than weaken it.

(4) Quakers try to have as closer realtionship with God as possible, they invite His influence into every facet of their lives and do not like to just accept things without first investigating it with the spirit of Jesus Christ to guide them. They believe Jesus would not mislead them into believing something that wasn't true.

(5) Quakers do not think people should just say without thinking 'The Bible says this so thats all there is to it' but should think about the issues themselves, ask God about it and judge based upon God guiding them. The truth is different for different people.

(6) Personal experience of God is vital...without it Christianity is nothing. Christianity is a notion not a way.

(7) For my own part I try to read the Bible as often as I can, I think it is a very important book which I carry around with me when I travel and often refer to it when I am afraid or worried about something but I also understand that loving Jesus Christ and allowing God into your life is about more than just reading the teachings in the Bible. The Bible is an excellent tool for learning about Jesus Christ, his life and teachings but ultimately I lead life according to the guidance of the spirit of Christ himself. Jesus is always with me, he never leaves me, he always has time for me, he loves all of us eqaully and never turns his back on us

(8) I hope that answers your questions. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have more. I want to build bridges and understanding between the Quakers and other Christian groups

Dear Innerlight,
(1) I thought the Hall Worthington website was the most exhaustive site on Quarkers. I guess you should read through them. It will be worth the pains. They were great thinkers and they suffered and were persecuted and were even martyrs for Christianity. I do not know the difference of the modern Quacker movement. Can you suggest a web site on this please?

(2) I had also considered this aspect of the Quakers doctrine, until I was proved wrong again and again by seeking through the Holy Spirit. No my dear friend it may look just like an object, like a book as you mentioned. But what it contains is the Word of God. Take an example of your educational certificate or currency for instance. Does the certificate or currency have the value of only paper or much more? You mentioned that the bible was written by ordinary men led by the Holy Spirit? What are Quackers then? And lastly why would God write the Bible and then direct thoughts in men to prove that what He had written is not correct so man has to edit the bible.

(3) Amen

(4) So do believers, and, but we respect Him for His divinity first and foremost. This adoration comes before inquiry into the genuity of His Word.

(5) Firstly truth is truth. No question of two types of truth. Secondly not only Quackers discern, all true believers too do so. The difference is that we have faith. Here also I restrict to the word faith, not more faith or less faith. One can either have faith or no faith at all. There is no in-between.

(6) Yes very true Christianity leads one to have a dynamic relationship with God as it is written. But if that is only a fancy concoction of words by an author to earn money for his paperback, why do Quakers take into consideration the teachings written down. The bible existed not only in the book form. It was available in various forms upto the electronic forms now available. Which notion and which way are you talking about.
Also Quackers do not respect others who do not follow their doctrine of God. That makes them arrogant. Also they are arrogant towards God because they do not approach God with a broken and contrite heart. They consider themselves competent to question God with whatever resources were given to them by God Himself. Their doctrine lack humility and blind faith.

(7) I agree on all that you said here except the part that the bible is a tool. I cannot de-grade the Bible to that level. It is the Word of God.

(8) Please give me scriptural backing and the source of the modern Quaker movement. Were the Quakers the first to bring Christianity to the US?

Please let us proceed with this study which you have started. I may ask may questions. Some may be just like an obnoxious weed. Just pull those and throw them off. Reply to the others.

Be Blessed
JIP

[Butterfly]

JIP- can I butt in and just challenge something. You said......

Also Quackers do not respect others who do not follow their doctrine of God. That makes them arrogant. Also they are arrogant towards God because they do not approach God with a broken and contrite heart. They consider themselves competent to question God with whatever resources were given to them by God Himself. Their doctrine lack humility and blind faith.

Isn't that making a generalisation, Innerlight is a quaker and he respects others , he is not arrogent ( well certainly hasn't come across as such during the time I have interacted with him ) How can you know the heart of every single Quaker and know that they do not come to God with a broken and contrite heart- I would suspect that there are many others outside of quakerism that fall into the same mould.

Within many christian churches there are judgments like this made against ' other ' groups- like Catholics and Anglican, Methodists. I have come up against them myself. And yet I know true born again believers within all of those churches. Surely people should be judged on ' who they are in Christ ' and I have no doubts that Innerlight is a born again believer.
I hope I haven't stepped on toes- ouch if I have.
What you said just bothered me- right I will exit now.

Butterfly

[JIP]

Originally Posted by Butterfly

JIP- can I butt in and just challenge something. You said......

Also Quackers do not respect others who do not follow their doctrine of God. That makes them arrogant. Also they are arrogant towards God because they do not approach God with a broken and contrite heart. They consider themselves competent to question God with whatever resources were given to them by God Himself. Their doctrine lack humility and blind faith.

Isn't that making a generalisation, Innerlight is a quaker and he respects others , he is not arrogent ( well certainly hasn't come across as such during the time I have interacted with him ) How can you know the heart of every single Quaker and know that they do not come to God with a broken and contrite heart- I would suspect that there are many others outside of quakerism that fall into the same mould.

Within many christian churches there are judgments like this made against ' other ' groups- like Catholics and Anglican, Methodists. I have come up against them myself. And yet I know true born again believers within all of those churches. Surely people should be judged on ' who they are in Christ ' and I have no doubts that Innerlight is a born again believer.
I hope I haven't stepped on toes- ouch if I have.
What you said just bothered me- right I will exit now.

Butterfly

LOL you guys have formed an opinion about me eh.
Well nevermind as long as we are talking about God.
Butterfly I was talking about Quakers, but Innerlight is a Modern Quaker. The part of my post is not about Innerlight.I have snd him the info' of my understanding and he may want to tell me about the Modern Quaker. And about what I said about the traditional Quaker, I will come back with details so that you may anaysis.
And one thing everybody wants to use is about judgment and argument - please bear in mind this is a forum. If you expect me to be mum on all that is said, then I would have gone and sat myself in a church, silent and most probably with closed eyes and folded arms.
To deliberate we have to put forth our points.

So keep discussing not challenging.
Be Blessed Butterfly.

[JIP]

Dear Butterfly please read thru' this. It is supportive of George Fox but you will get my point. If you have any doubts I believe Innerlight will be able to clear it.

http://www.hallvworthington.com/CriticsAnswered.html