Eternal torment or Annihilation? What happens to the Wicked

[Lily]

Annihilation is a false doctrine that teaches a meaningless existence. Meaningless because, if we " just " cease to exist, then where would be that healthy fear of eternal consequences in hell ?
There would be no regrets, no suffering, no conscience, nothing.
If we just cease to exist then we may as well give up right now, we become people of no virtue and people without virtue are people without hope and good and evil would become just what WE want them to be.

Annihilation is unbiblical.

Matthew 25:46

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If annihilation were true, there would " be " no everlasting punishment.

Revelation 20:10

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

and " for ever and ever " would be meaningless.

It would also mean that people like Hitler, for example, would suffer no eternal consequences for their crimes.

This teaches nothing but a meaningless existence and a meaningless conclusion. The fact that our lives are not meaningless is the reason for hell, the fact that we were created for a purpose, that purpose being, rejection of hell and a relationship with God.

[Chuckt]

This is a twisting of Gods truth and not what the Bible teaches, but Satan wants you to believe that, so no matter if you disobey God you will continue to live in one way or another, or even as some mistakely believe, all are saved no matter what they do or universalism. Does the scripture teach that, of course not but it allows people to think they can continue to live in sin and still work their way to heaven or live (even if its with Satan) forever. This is the great lie that Satan told in the begining, and many still keep believing it...

I don't believe in universalism. I don't believe in sinning.

The idea of annihilationism is unbiblical:

“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”-Jude 1:7

If annihilationism was true then why doesn't Jude 1:7 say "suffered" instead of suffering?

And those who get punishment are not going to get off with annihilationism:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

That word "many" can mean "large" stripes.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Luke 17:2 makes little sense if you believe in annihilationism.

“And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.”-Mark 1:24

The word for “destroy” in Mark 1:24 is apollumi and it is used of the unclean spirit. The idea is “to perish” of persons but Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words describes it as “...not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well being.”

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”-Matthew 10:28

“Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”-Matthew 23:33

Jesus includes people with the angels that will suffer forever and ever.

[Hobie]

Annihilation is a false doctrine that teaches a meaningless existence. Meaningless because, if we " just " cease to exist, then where would be that healthy fear of eternal consequences in hell ?
There would be no regrets, no suffering, no conscience, nothing.
If we just cease to exist then we may as well give up right now, we become people of no virtue and people without virtue are people without hope and good and evil would become just what WE want them to be.

Annihilation is unbiblical.

Matthew 25:46

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If annihilation were true, there would " be " no everlasting punishment.

Revelation 20:10

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

and " for ever and ever " would be meaningless.

It would also mean that people like Hitler, for example, would suffer no eternal consequences for their crimes.

This teaches nothing but a meaningless existence and a meaningless conclusion. The fact that our lives are not meaningless is the reason for hell, the fact that we were created for a purpose, that purpose being, rejection of hell and a relationship with God.

My sister, I would humbly disagree, as the Greek ideas of Hades are what have brought confusion into the issue, but the Bible is clear, the wicked will perish at the Lake of Fire. Lets take a look a does "For Ever" mean forever.

The root of the problem here is the Biblical meaning of the words “for ever”, “everlasting” and the various forms of “unquenchable”, i.e. “not be quenched”. Most people, understandably so, misunderstand the Biblical concept of these terms. In the Bible these terms sometimes do and sometimes don’t equate to our modern meaning of "forever". In today’s usage these terms mean “for the ceaseless ages of eternity” for the most part though not exclusively. For example:
A married couple: they tell each other “I’ll love you forever” but we all know that people die. What they are truly saying is “they love each other until death”, right? This is a parallel to see how even in modern times "forever" doesn’t necessarily mean the ceaseless age of eternity.

So, let’s establish what the Bible writers’ concept of forever was:
Genesis 43:9 - I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:
Genesis 44:32 - For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.
This was pre-incarnate Jesus talking to the Father in regards to man’s sin. Now, will Jesus bear the blame forever? No. (see Hebrews 9:28) The day will come when there is an end to sin. So the meaning here is clearly meant as “until it is done”.

Exodus 12:14 - And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:17 - And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exodus 12:24 - And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
But we know that the feasts were done away with when the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. Exodus 12:14 is talking about the institution of the Passover; later Jesus became our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7). The key in this verse is the part that says “by an ordinance”. We know that the ordinances were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14); and there aren’t any ordinances in the 10 Commandments. So again we find that “forever” does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity as is commonly misunderstood.

Let’s get some more examples:
Exodus 19:9 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
The question here is, how can the people “believe thee for ever” if they were mere mortals? They could not, of course, unless they were saved and would get ressurected at Christ's second coming. They died and the dead know not anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The meaning here is that they would believe for as long as they lived, not the ceaseless ages of eternity. Also, the thick cloud that could be seen by day (it was a fire from the sky at night) was no longer seen after Moses’ death. So, again, “for ever” does not equate to our modern understanding of forever.

Exodus 21:6 - Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Would it be possible for a servant or master to live forever? No. Is a man still a servant to another after death? No. This clearly means that the servant would be a servant for the rest of his life and not the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Exodus 27:21 - In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
Exodus 28:43 - And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
Did the earthly tabernacle and its ceremonies last forever? No. (see Col. 2:14) Again, we find the meaning of “for ever” to mean “until it is done”.

In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out; it will not last for the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Jeremiah 17:27 - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall NOT BE QUENCHED.
We all know that Jerusalem is not still burning today; as such the fire that “shall not be quenched” means that it cannot be put out UNTIL it has done God’s purpose. No man can quench it; only God can. And God obviously did quench that fire else it would still be burning to this day.

We find in the following verses the same concept:
Isaiah 1:28-31 - And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. 29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen. 30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water. 31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
The key here is the last part of the last line: “and none shall quench them.” This clearly means that no one will be able to quench the fire that burns the wicked. But just as we learned in Jeremiah 17:27 only God can quench a fire that He has started. God is consistent in His doings.
When we apply this to another example from Isaiah where he further talks of Christ’s second coming, we now understand it more clearly:
Isaiah 34:8-10 - For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance (this is when it happens – not before) , and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Now we see that “from generation to generation” means “the generations of the wicked”, i.e. generations of wicked poeple, not that the fire will last from generation to generation. The only way for that to mean otherwise would mean that people would be procreating in hell – which is an absurd notion. That would then further mean that babies born in hell would burn for no reason. That idea goes totally against what we know of God’s character, does it not? Also in this verse we find another "not be quenched" phrase which by now is clearly understood to mean "unstoppable until it has served its purpose".

Let’s look at Jonah’s example:
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars were about me FOR EVER: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
The book of Matthew says Jonah was in the belly of the whale THREE DAYS; not for ever. Here we see the same thing that “for ever” can mean a limited amount of time. Though I must say, to Jonah those 3 days must have seemed like forever. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this meant "10 generations."


These examples should be ample to illustrate that “for ever” according to Biblical teachings does not mean the ceaseless ages of eternity. The same holds true for other phrases such as "not be quenched" and "everlasting". Now that we’ve firmly established the true scriptural concept involved here let’s move on to the question of hell-fire.

[Hobie]

Question: If the wicked burn in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity then wouldn’t they also have eternal life?

The wicked don’t get eternal life, the Bible doesn’t teach that:

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 6:54 - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans 5:21 - That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Proverbs 10:25 - As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.

This verse is an example of everlasting actually meaning our modern usage of the word. Notice that the wicked become “no more”. If they burned in hell forever then this verse (and many others) should be removed from the Bible because they would totally contradict the concept that has been already been well established.
Isaiah 33:14 - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

This verse goes back to showing that “everlasting” doesn’t mean our modern usage. Notice the phrase “devouring fire”; how can a fire devour something that continues to exist? Simple – it cannot. The fire DOES devour the sinners/wicked and they are no more.

When the Bible says the wicked will burn “for ever” it does NOT necessarily mean the ceaseless ages of eternity; it simply means “until it is done/accomplished”. To say those in hell will burn forever totally uproots the following verses and many more:
Isaiah 47: 9-14 – “But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.”
Quick note - stubble burns fairly quickly.

Malachi 4:1-3 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever? Simple, they cannot. The Bible does not contradict itself and a “eternally burning” hell is not scripturally accurate. That concept is foreign to the scriptures.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is not eternal life while burning in an eternal hell; the wages of sin is death. Hell-fire is the means used to bring about that death.

Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 112:10 - The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28 - The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
Psalms 68:2 - As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
The wicked cannot perish and burn forever at the same time – that would be an oxymoron if there ever was one. It would also mean that the Bible is inaccurate and inconsistent which it isn't. Again, it is US that must change our preconceived notions and accept what the Bible is telling us.


Psalm 104:35 - Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Aha, the wicked will become “no more”; a verse that says it plainly.

Ezekiel 28:18, 19 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Another verse that says it plainly; they (the wicked) will be no more. They can’t be burning forever AND be “no more” at the same time. Obviously it is the result that will be eternal and forever.

How does this all come together?
The Biblical teaching is simple; the results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. This confusion is reflected well in the following verse where "everlasting" is the stumbling-block word but now that you know the truth verses like this become easily understandble:
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Conclusion:
Many portions of the Bible simply cannot be reconciled unless the reader understands that the term “for ever” or “not be quenched” or “unquenchable” can also mean “until it is done/accomplished” and not always the “ceaseless ages of eternity” as is the common English meaning. For the Bible to be consistent, which we all know it is and all believers should understand that, then WE must change, not the Bible. We must change our understanding and get rid of preconcieved notions. As with anything, the reader must understand the context as well as the Biblical meaning of words, not the modern, in order to fully comprehend the meaning. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning. Unless one reads with the desire to understand and the willingness to compare scriptures then they will not understand this topic or any others that the Bible teaches...

[Hobie]

Here is a great explanation in this part of a study on this by Ralph Blodgett.

"Contrary to popular beliefs, the Bible teaches that the wicked will be destroyed at the end of time, not condemned to a place of eternal torment.
To illustrate how graphic some ministers become in their altar-call presentations (and how far from the Bible they digress), allow me to quote from a tract published a few years back and recommended especially valuable for children. "The sinner lies chained down on a bed of red-hot blazing fire....All the body is salted with fire. The fire burns through every bone and every muscle, every nerve is trembling and quivering with the sharp fire. The fire rages inside the skull, it shoots out through the eyes, it drops out through the ears, it roars in the throat as it roars up a chimney. So will mortal sin be punished." The author’s name, surprisingly enough, is Reverend J. Furniss.

Teachings such as these, both past and present, grossly distort God’s nature and misconstrue His motives. Admittedly the Scriptures do claim, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:19). The word here and elsewhere translated "vengeance" comes from edikesis, a Greek word meaning "vindication," or "retribution."

Vengeance as used in the Scriptures must not be confused with revenge, an English word that indicates a desire to "get even," "to retaliate against someone for wrongs he or she has committed against an individual," or "to get satisfaction of a grudge by inflicting injury."

Revenge involves a vindictiveness, a rancor, or a vendetta. Such motives are completely alien to God’s nature. He does not store up hatred against sinners and then unleash that hostility and animosity by sentencing sinners to roast eternally over the iron spits of hellfire. God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

God’s vengeance, mentioned many times in Scripture, is the inexorable execution of divine justice. It stems not from His anger but from His absolute purity. Sin and sinners cannot survive in the presence of Absolute Holiness, just as darkness is obliterated by light. "Our God is a consuming fire," declared the author of Hebrews, in chapter 12, verse 29. God demonstrated that fact in a small way at Mount Sinai (see Exodus 24:17) and will do so in a much greater way at the end of time (Psalm 50:3).

God’s vengeance, or wrath, will result in the complete destruction of the wicked, not their eternal torture. Many passages of Scripture attest to the complete annihilation of the wicked in the lake of fire:

"By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed." "let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed." "but the wicked shall perish,...they shall be consumed; into smoke shall they consume away" (Job 4:9; Psalm 104:35; Isaiah 1:28; Psalm 37:20)..."

[Hobie]

The "eternal fire." The expressions "eternal fire" (Jude 7), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), and other similar phrases refer not to the duration of the flames that destroy the wicked but to the kind of flames, and the effects of those flames (i.e., it is an eternal destruction; they will never again see life).

We know this because of the example in Jude 7: "Sodom and Gomorrah ... are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (emphasis supplied). Are Sodom and Gomorrah burning today? Of course not! Peter claimed those two cities were turned "into ashes,... making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (2 Peter 2:6). Obviously, according to the Scriptures, an eternal fire does not burn eternally but rather its effects last for all eternity.

The "unquenchable fire." This expression, which occurs only twice in the Bible (Matthew 3:12; Luke 3:17), again refers to the kind of fire God will use to destroy the wicked. No one will be able to extinguish it before it burns up the wicked (see Matthew 3:12).

God’s Word declares this fire is so hot it will melt the very elements of the earth and will destroy all the works of mankind (2 Peter 3:10-12). Just as the fires that destroyed ancient Jerusalem, God said, "shall not be quenched" (Jeremiah 17:27), so also the fire that destroys the wicked will not be quenched until it has accomplished its destruction (see Jeremiah 52:12, 13; 2 Chronicles 36:19).

Contrary to the popular teachings, this fire that God sends down upon the lost at the end of time will completely devour all the wicked (Revelation 20:9). It will cleanse the earth of every taint of sin and even burn up the very elements of the earth (2 Peter 3:10-12). It will make the way open for God to create a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).

The wicked shall be destroyed in this fire (Psalm 145:20); they will die (Ezekiel 18:4); they will perish (John 3:16); they will be cut off (Psalm 37:28); they will be consumed (Psalm 37:20); they will be burned up (Psalm 97:3); and they shall be no more (Psalm 37:10).

It is the conclusion of this author that hell, as popularly believed and taught, is the doctrine of the devil and not of God. It is contrary to what the Bible teaches about God. It is inconsistent with every reason that can be mustered in favor of it. It is against the teachings of Scripture, properly understood. And it is merely an extension of the first lie that Satan gave to Eve in the Garden of Eden: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" (Geneses 3:4).

Satan’s great lie, that when you die you really don’t die, but you keep on living forever—either in heaven or in hell—has been perpetuated from pulpits and upon the broad foundation of this single lie some have erected unscriptural theological institutions such as Purgatory, Indulgences, Prayers to Dead Saints, Communication With the Dead (i.e., spiritualism), and Eternal Torment for the Wicked in Hellfire.

[ProphecyKid]

Hobie, I think you have done well. Nothing more needs to be said. The truth shall prevail.

[Onesiphorus]

DEar Hobie and PK ,I am uncertain what you are professing here ,are you promoting "Nihalism " this I can relate to ,but not "anihalism"

Can you please clarify which of the above you are referring to

[Chuckt]

Hobie, I think you have done well. Nothing more needs to be said. The truth shall prevail.

Actually, you both stopped answering me and continued to post stuff knowing that your doctrine is false. I don't have to bow to your level and continue.

[ProphecyKid]

DEar Hobie and PK ,I am uncertain what you are professing here ,are you promoting "Nihalism " this I can relate to ,but not "anihalism"

Can you please clarify which of the above you are referring to

I don't get tied up with all these titles to beliefs but the wicked shall die in the lake of fire. They shall not burn forever just as the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah is not burning now. Its effects are everlasting. The wicked shall live no more. In order to be tormented forever you must have eternal life but the wages of sin is death and not eternal life. That is why in Revelation 20:14 i believe it is, it mentions the second death. I think Hobie explained everything before.