Eternal torment or Annihilation? What happens to the Wicked

[BENONI]

Again you point the finger at me, I did not write these verses and if you do not like my comment on these verses then please show me what I am saying is wrong. I call you bias because you said God's Word is literal, show me.

Show me about thirty commentaries with your interpretation and then you can call me biased. I think you will be hard pressed to find them.

[canny]

Try not to get personal please everyone

[Jay Dub]

A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

So then, when Jesus said these verses he was only speaking about a duration of time

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. ( aiōnios)

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ( aiōnios)

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. ( aiōnios)

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;
( aiōnios) and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; ( aiōnios)and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

[BENONI]

Seeing you brought up John 3;16 let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.

Notice the 17th verse which I noticed you did not include.

(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.


Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

So then, when Jesus said these verses he was only speaking about a duration of time

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. ( aiōnios)

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ( aiōnios)

.

[BENONI]

God is eternal man is not. When you speak of the ages in these verses you must understand that one age leads to another age, to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age,to another age, etc.

There are many ages; we are in the Church age right at this moment; there were different ages we can see through out Bible History. Here are a few examples:

1. Unto the age. Mark 3:29.
2. Unto the ages. Luke 1:33.
3. Unto all the ages. Jude 25.
4. Unto the age of the age. Heb. 1:8.
5. Unto all the generations of the age of the ages. Eph. 3:21.
6. Unto the ages of the ages. Rev. 1:6.
7. Unto the day of an age. 2 Pet. 3:18.


When we come to the age of ages; then all will be all; I believe there are many ages to come; and there has been ages that have ended. Only God can answer how many ages there are; we know in part until that which is perfect has come; that which is part shall be done away with.

So then, when Jesus said these verses he was only speaking about a duration of time

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. ( aiōnios)

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ( aiōnios)

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. ( aiōnios)

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;
( aiōnios) and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; ( aiōnios)and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

[Jay Dub]

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

With respect to you I don't see a difference. If one does not perish then, this life age-during is eternal life. It is obviously not speaking of our physical lives, we will all face physical death, so then the verse speaks of our spiritual lives and it said we will not perish. This is eternal life.

The other thing that troubles me is you are saying we are not able to understand the bible, that the bible can not be read on its own. That the pictures the bible paints for us are not correct

[BENONI]

It is a matter of hearing; singular. There are various levels of hearing, some 30 sixth and 100 fold. Most believers see and hear the milk of the Word, the letter that killeth but do not see the spirit of the Word. Like I said earlier there are actually two totally different Word's of God.

Isaiah 29:13 says, "For as much as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor Me, but they have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precepts of men." When your fear of God is taught only by the precepts of man, you will fulfill Matthew 15:9 which says, "In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandment's of men. " And 1 Timothy 1:7 adds, "Desiring to be teachers of the law, they understand neither what they say nor whereof they affirm." We need to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ."

Evangelical Babylon confines its people within the circle of a limited concept of God's love, consequently, their "fear toward God has been taught them by the precepts of man," and they are prevented from learning what our Lord and Savior is really like. As the Scripture says, "Their bed is too short and their covers are too narrow." In order to grow in their knowledge of God's love, they need to get out of the bed they are trying to sleep in.

Jesus said that everyone who learns of Me, comes. Evangelical Babylon tries to reverse the order. They tell us that if we come, we will be able to learn.

But Jesus says, "When the Father teaches you about Me, then you will come." Psalm 40:6 says, "Mine ears Thou hast opened." The Hebrew word "opened" literally means "digged." God has to dig our ears out of all the other voices that prevent us from knowing what He is really like.

John 5:25-28 says that the hour is coming when all who are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they shall live. They who have done evil will come forth unto the resurrection of damnation. The word "damnation" is the Greek word "Krisis"`from which we get our word "crises." A crisis is a turning point. The Chinese word for crises consists of two characters. One means trouble and the other means opportunity.

All of God's judgements, including the lake of fire, are positive in nature and are motivated by His love, for He has no other motivation, and they are all correctional processings of God to bring us into righteousness. When evil-doers learn from the correctional instruction of God's judgement, it will cause them to come to the Saviour. First there is the learning, then there is the coming. Every judgement is a part of the process of being taught by God. Every day, all day long we are in the process of being judged by God. Our reaction to every seemingly insignificant happening in our life is judging us before God, and the reaping of what we sow through these reactions is part of the process of God's instruction. They are instructional chastenings and are part of the judgements of God.

Most of Christendom's concept of God's judgement is condemnatory and negative. This concept is an anti-Biblical misconception from beginning to end. All expressions of judgement are the handiwork of God and their end result will be to gird us up unto righteousness. We ought to have the attitude of the Psalmist who said, "I have hoped in Thy judgements."

I Corinthians 8:6 & 7 says, "To us there is but one God, the Father, out of Whom are ALL THINGS and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by Whom are ALL THINGS and we by Him, howbeit, THERE IS NOT IN EVERY MAN THAT KNOWLEDGE." In fact, most people have the conception that there are two sources - a God for good and a devil for evil. And because they do not have an eye single to God but have dual vision, they continually walk in confusion. When a situation starts out bad but turns good, they think the devil tried to harm them but God rescued them. And when a situation starts out good but turns bad, they think the devil got hold of it and defeated God's intention to be good to us. They are never quite sure if their situation is being controlled by God or the devil. There is not within them "the knowledge that there is but One God, out of Whom are ALL THINGS."

"This is the life of the ages, that they might know Thee, the only true God." If you really want a hassle on your hands, try to convince Christian Babylon that their devil is not as strong as they think he is. They will arise and vigorously defend their semi-omnipotent devil at the drop of a hat. But we can't blame them for not having the knowledge that there is only one God. Such knowledge only becomes our at the rate of speed that God wants to teach it to us. Only those who are God-taught know that He is in intimate sovereign control over ALL. But in Revelation 14 it says that the messenger of God will preach the gospel of the ages, and will instruct us to fear God and worship only Him. He is the Creator, Sustainer, and Controller of us all.

Both the vessels of honor and the vessels of dishonor are in His hands and neither of them ever leave His hands.

The Scripture says, "I will give you pastors according to My heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding." When God joins the messenger to the message of what He is really like, they will feed the people with this knowledge and understanding. And though God gives us the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, they will serve as our teachers unto righteousness

With respect to you I don't see a difference. If one does not perish then, this life age-during is eternal life. It is obviously not speaking of our physical lives, we will all face physical death, so then the verse speaks of our spiritual lives and it said we will not perish. This is eternal life.

The other thing that troubles me is you are saying we are not able to understand the bible, that the bible can not be read on its own. That the pictures the bible paints for us are not correct

[BENONI]

In reference to the word "perish" the verse is addressing the lost, in other words the unjust those God has not called. The punishment of the lost is limited duration, where the life of God is many ages which will never end.

Point being God is not calling all people now.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

If God does not call you, you cannot come.

With respect to you I don't see a difference. If one does not perish then, this life age-during is eternal life. It is obviously not speaking of our physical lives, we will all face physical death, so then the verse speaks of our spiritual lives and it said we will not perish. This is eternal life.

The other thing that troubles me is you are saying we are not able to understand the bible, that the bible can not be read on its own. That the pictures the bible paints for us are not correct

[Chuckt]

If God does not call you, you cannot come.

Are you taking a Calvinist argument?

[BENONI]

No, I am talking scripture. I am not a Calvanist.

Are you taking a Calvinist argument?