the law is dead

[ProphecyKid]

No one was ever saved by grace. The notion that the church now is saved by grace through faith is false. Man was always saved by grace through faith. The many laws given by Moses were significant at that time because Jesus had not yet come and his blood was not yet shed. The people had to adhere to the laws which contain the shadows of Christ in order for them to get justification and forgiveness for their sins. But it was not the doing of the law but the symbolic blood of Jesus that saved them.

This was a huge mistake I made in typing there. I really meant to say no one was ever saved by keeping the law and man was always saved by grace.

[smellycat]

you can only break laws if you agree with them.
if your country breaks Gods laws what chance has an individual.?
we need to follow God not the countries in question.

[ProphecyKid]

you can only break laws if you agree with them.
if your country breaks Gods laws what chance has an individual.?
we need to follow God not the countries in question.

Not true. You can break them even if you don't agree. If you drive over the speed limit you will get charged even if you don't agree and you have broken the law. Right and wrong is not based on if you agree.

[Onesiphorus]

#11 I thought that is what you must have meant ,but are you still saying we have to abide with the 10 Commandment ?

[smellycat]

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12.

[ProphecyKid]

#11 I thought that is what you must have meant ,but are you still saying we have to abide with the 10 Commandment ?

Well look at it this way. Adam and Eve didnt earn a place in the garden of Eden, yet they were kicked out because of disobedience. Lucifer did not earn a spot in heaven but he was kicked out because of disobedience. Disobedience is the reason why we are in this big sin problem. We are not perfect and we are all born in sin and shaped in iniquity and that is why we can only be saved by the work of the perfect man Jesus Christ. But then we look to Jesus and what does he tell us?

1. If ye love me keep my commandments.
2. If any man come after me let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
3. Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will of the father who is in heaven.

What Jesus is telling us is that our salvation has something to do with us as well. He went and died on the cross to save us. But how can I say that i accept Jesus, have other God before him, dishonor my mother and father, steal and kill and think that I will go waltzing into heaven. It is just the reality of the situation. True faith brings forth appropriate works. Faith without works is dead (there is no faith). We keep the commandments because we love the Lord and because we have faith. Moses didn't keep the commandments so that he would be saved. He was saved by grace just like all of us. His loyalty to God is what brought forth his obedience.

[Chuckt]

What Jesus is telling us is that our salvation has something to do with us as well. He went and died on the cross to save us. But how can I say that i accept Jesus, have other God before him, dishonor my mother and father, steal and kill and think that I will go waltzing into heaven. It is just the reality of the situation. True faith brings forth appropriate works. Faith without works is dead (there is no faith). We keep the commandments because we love the Lord and because we have faith. Moses didn't keep the commandments so that he would be saved. He was saved by grace just like all of us. His loyalty to God is what brought forth his obedience.

James acknowledges that Abraham was justified by faith and James says in James 2:18 "shew" me your faith because James is talking about showing your faith before men. In John 3:8 it says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." So you're trying to determine by physical eyesight what you cannot see (John 3:8).

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Did David obey? David was called a man after God's own heart and he comitted fornication and adultery. Did Moses obey? Moses comitted murder. Did Aaron obey? The funny thing about Aaron was that I was sure God would smite Aaron for building the golden calf but nothing happens to him right away. Why is that? If we judge by what we see then Moses, David, Aaron and others wouldn't get into heaven. 1 Cor 3:15 says,”If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” When we look at work being burned up, do we believe that the Christian/believer will not be saved?

So you are making assumptions based on a simple reading of the text.

[ProphecyKid]

James acknowledges that Abraham was justified by faith and James says in James 2:18 "shew" me your faith because James is talking about showing your faith before men. In John 3:8 it says, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." So you're trying to determine by physical eyesight what you cannot see (John 3:8).

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Did David obey? David was called a man after God's own heart and he comitted fornication and adultery. Did Moses obey? Moses comitted murder. Did Aaron obey? The funny thing about Aaron was that I was sure God would smite Aaron for building the golden calf but nothing happens to him right away. Why is that? If we judge by what we see then Moses, David, Aaron and others wouldn't get into heaven. 1 Cor 3:15 says,”If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” When we look at work being burned up, do we believe that the Christian/believer will not be saved?

So you are making assumptions based on a simple reading of the text.

Pointing out one point in someone's life where they committed a sin is not a good premise to take to say they were not an obedient person. Are you really saying that Jesus does not care about us being obedient? Lets do some simple reading of the scripture.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you are a servant of God you will be obedient to God. I see nothing wrong with this.

[Onesiphorus]

Well look at it this way. Adam and Eve didnt earn a place in the garden of Eden, yet they were kicked out because of disobedience. Lucifer did not earn a spot in heaven but he was kicked out because of disobedience. Disobedience is the reason why we are in this big sin problem. We are not perfect and we are all born in sin and shaped in iniquity and that is why we can only be saved by the work of the perfect man Jesus Christ. But then we look to Jesus and what does he tell us?

1. If ye love me keep my commandments.
2. If any man come after me let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
3. Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will of the father who is in heaven.

What Jesus is telling us is that our salvation has something to do with us as well. He went and died on the cross to save us. But how can I say that i accept Jesus, have other God before him, dishonor my mother and father, steal and kill and think that I will go waltzing into heaven. It is just the reality of the situation. True faith brings forth appropriate works. Faith without works is dead (there is no faith). We keep the commandments because we love the Lord and because we have faith. Moses didn't keep the commandments so that he would be saved. He was saved by grace just like all of us. His loyalty to God is what brought forth his obedience.

I agree with you in your irst paragraph up to where you introduce what Jesus says and here we part company

These verses are pure law as well you are aware PK

The first being the passage of the last passover meal just prior to His death and the passage rns from John 13 to 14 ,the context is concerning Jesus telling His disciples of His coming capture and death ,and the non awareness by them of His Glory in His death and resurrection ,indicating how little they knew of the Gospel of Grace ,and to pick out the verse above;which many do PK does not reflect properly on the context of the scripture (I could go on about the Apostles lack of kknowledge of the blood and the cross and just what that means as far as what they preached during Christs lifetime concerning the "good news "they had ,but that is another subject

The second quote s from The commission to the disciples I am referencing Matthew 10 from the Geneva Study Bible ,again PK the context is not in line as far as "the church the body of Christ"is concerned

Here we have Jesus commanding and enpowering the disciples to go out and preach the "good news of the kingdom" again not the message of the blood and the cross as we can show from this passage and the previous passage in Luke that they did not understand this message

This passage includes the orders of where this message should be preached or rather where it should not be preached
i.e.Matthew 10:5-7 not to gentile cities or samaritan cities but go to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"

And as they did not preach the blood or the cross they preached repentance and baptism ,Jesus called it the message of the kingdom that is at hand ,so,
the message of the kingdom was preached to the lost sheep of the house of Israel only ,together with signs and wonders
This is not the commission for the Church the body of Christ


The third reference is from Matthew 7 :21 again the context of this passage is complete when chapters 5 , 6 and 7 and taken as a whole ,but i am basically going to repeat myself ,so,I hope you will allow me not to refer to it ,but hjust to say that a verse cannot do justice to context

Of course the process we call the cross was for the reconciliation of all ,but, where the church the body of Christ ,is concerned ,where there is neither Jew nor gentile ,we are saved by faith and not being of ay works ,as Paul tells us ;whereas ;in the future prophetic kingdom where salvation by faith alone will not be offered ,then there will be a return to salvation by faith and works as James tells of in the Kingdom prophesied in the scriptures ,when this message to the lost sheep of Israel will again be offered

YOu see all who believe is covenant and replacement theology ,must see all scripture that is for the house of Israel and the prophetic future for that People and their Messiah CHrist Jesus as their own ,therefore they cannot differentiate between the promises God made to HIs PEople Israel and the assurances we the Church the body of Christ have in our present savior CHrist Jesus .We have our assurances now ,they will have their promises fulfilled by enduring to the end

[Chuckt]

Pointing out one point in someone's life where they committed a sin is not a good premise to take to say they were not an obedient person. Are you really saying that Jesus does not care about us being obedient? Lets do some simple reading of the scripture.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you are a servant of God you will be obedient to God. I see nothing wrong with this.

You're having a relationship with the law and I see no emphasis from you on having a relationship with Jesus.

It is dead works. It is obedience to a system without the substance.

So how much do you have to be considered obedient when you sin when you want to?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.