Messiah

[Herald]

I quoted the Scripture. Not all Jews are of faith...that, should be obvious.

[onesiphorus]

PLease do not misunderstand me , any individual added to the church
the body of christ I praise God , but for 2000years Christendom has arrogantly asserted that theirs is the only way, completely ignoring scriptural truths regarding Gods people Israel and denying them the salvation as a nation they know they will have ..It will not be within the Church the bodyof Christ whose future is in the heaven , but their future is an earthly Davidic kingdom promised them since Abraham , moses David

[Jay Dub]

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

PLease do not misunderstand me , any individual added to the church
the body of christ I praise God , but for 2000years Christendom has arrogantly asserted that theirs is the only way, completely ignoring scriptural truths regarding Gods people Israel and denying them the salvation as a nation they know they will have ..It will not be within the Church the bodyof Christ whose future is in the heaven , but their future is an earthly Davidic kingdom promised them since Abraham , moses David

Oneisiphorus

Sometimes I have alot of trouble understanding you, sorry.

I don't know why you think Israel is saved as a nation. God has always dealt with his people, he has never put up with their sins, but when Christ returns, you seem to be saying that all in Israel will be saved the wicked and the righteous. It seems you are saying if you are a Jew when Christ returns, whether evil or not you will be saved. This is not scriptural

Act 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

There is only one way to be saved and that is through Jesus. With this verse, we can also conclude that we are not saved because we are Israel
Because we belong to a certain nation, this does not save us

Why do you think Paul spoke of the branches broken off

Rom 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Rom 11:20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

Jews were broken off, people from the nation of Israel were broken off because of their unbelief in their only savior, their Messiah, Jesus Christ.

When Christ returns, it will be believing Jews and those of us who have been grafted in, that will be saved.

Can you please explain to me, why you feel this brakes Gods prophesies or his promises. Gods people are saved! Jews and Gentiles. Why is this a problem?

Gal. 6:15-16: "But in Christ it is not circumcision or circumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy!"

Gal. 3:7: "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.


Romans 2
29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God

Romans 9
8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Romans 4:13
13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

[onesiphorus]

YOu do not have a problem with me JayDub you have a problem with believing the scriptures

His people are Israel ...Look and read Romans 11

Verse 1' I SAY THEN HATH GOD CAST AWAY "HIS PEOPLE "(ISRAEL) GOD FORBID I ALSO AM AN ISRAELITE OFTHE SEED OF ABRAHAM OF THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN

Verse 11 ISAY THEN HAVE THEY STUMBLED THATTHEY SHOULD FAL ...THROUGH THEIR(ISRAEL)FALL SALVATION IS COME TO THE GENTILES


VERSE 26 AND SO "ALL ISRAEL" SHALL BE SAVED AS..IT..IS..WRITTEN..THERE SHALL COME OUT OF SION THE DELIVERER AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM "JACOB(ISRAEL)..PROPHECY FOR ISRAEL FOUND IN PSALMS AND ISAIAH

VERSE 27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM (ISRAEL)WHEN I(GOD)HALL TAKE AWAY THEIR(ISRAEL)SINS


NOW I ASK YOU WHO IS THIS AND IF YOU SAY 'SPIRITUAL ISRAEL THEN YOU ARE NOT READING THE VERSES YOU ARE ROBBING ISRAEL OF THEIR PROPHETIC AND COVENANT PROMISES

AND IT IS ALSO A DEMONSTRATION OF WHY COVENANT BELIEVERS MUST SAY THEY ARE "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN TRY AND SHOW THAT THE PROMISES FOR THE REAL ISRAEL S FOR THEM

you have not quoted Galatians 6:17 properly for the verse actually reads ..and as many as walk according to this rule rule peace be on them and mercy ,.....and upon the Israel of God

also

galatians 3:6 ..EVEN AS ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS

KNOW YE THEREFORE

that they which are of faith the same are the chidren of Abraham

Just as Abraham was saved by faith prior to the Gospel as an example , so too are we who are saved by faith by the Gospel ...same faith ,same salvation his example our example

the just shall live by faith.

Romans 2 is a conviction of all mankind Jew and Gentilethe first 7 chapters are proof that all are unrighteous and need savior the first 8 chapters of romans are to be read as 1 because that is the context conluding in 8 where Paul reveals the salvation for the church the body of christ saved by grace through faith

Romans 9:8 we have already shown the context but once again the quote of verse 8 seems to have errors ...i quote

THAT IS THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH (ISHMAEL) THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF THE GOD BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE(ISAAC) ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED

not the same is it and do you know how i know its talking of Isaac

VERSE 7 NEITHER BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN ....BUT....IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED

So once again how is Paul speaking of the "church the body of christ "

I am sorry Jay Dub the cherry picked verses are not in their true context as i hope I have shown f not there is little more I can add

[Bloodbought]

Israel has been set aside temporarily because they rejected the Jesus when he came to earth in human flesh. Jews who accept Christ as Saviour are added to the Church which is His body.

When Christ returns as Messiah the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. At that time the Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached and the nation of Israel will return to God. As jdub says they will inherit the new earth while the church will be in Heaven ruling over the new earth.

[onesiphorus]

BUt Jay Dub does not think His people Israel wil be saved as a nation

[Jay Dub]

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

YOu do not have a problem with me JayDub you have a problem with believing the scriptures

What I said was I have trouble understanding you. I do believe the scriptures, we are here to help each other find the truth not put each other down.

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

His people are Israel ...Look and read Romans 11

Verse 1' I SAY THEN HATH GOD CAST AWAY "HIS PEOPLE "(ISRAEL) GOD FORBID I ALSO AM AN ISRAELITE OFTHE SEED OF ABRAHAM OF THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN

Let us go back to verse romans 9:1

Rom 9:1
I speak the truth in Christ-I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-
Rom 9:2
I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race,

Why does Paul say these things? Why would Paul rather die and go to hell ( be cursed and cut off from christ) for the sake of his brothers, if what you are telling me is true, why is paul in such anguish if all Jews are saved?
Pauls anguish comes from the fact that the Jews have rejected thier Messiah and God has turned to the Gentiles.

Paul grieves because he knows all that does not believe in Messiah will be cut off
God has not cast away his people, this is what you are saying. All Israel that believes on their Messiah will be saved. God will cast away all those who do not believe. That is explained in Romans 11 with the broken branches

Romans 9:30That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

Rom 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

VERSE 26 AND SO "ALL ISRAEL" SHALL BE SAVED AS..IT..IS..WRITTEN..THERE SHALL COME OUT OF SION THE DELIVERER AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM "JACOB(ISRAEL)..PROPHECY FOR ISRAEL FOUND IN PSALMS AND ISAIAH

VERSE 27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM (ISRAEL)WHEN I(GOD)HALL TAKE AWAY THEIR(ISRAEL)SINS

When was this covenant established? when would God take away their sins? and who was the deliverer who came out of Sion? These are scripture that pointed to Jesus. He came out of Sion and set up the new covenant and took away our sins God fulfilled his end, the jews only need to turn to him.

Romans 11:26 and all Israel being saved. This is not talking about the NATION Isreal in the same chapter it talks about un believering Jews being broken off. How does that make sense, unbelievers being broken off, yet all are saved?
This verse is talking about true Israel
Gal. 6:15-16:
Gal 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
All who call on the name of Jesus will be saved, this is scriptual, this is true Israel

Gal. 3:7: "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Romans 2
29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God

NOW I ASK YOU WHO IS THIS AND IF YOU SAY 'SPIRITUAL ISRAEL THEN YOU ARE NOT READING THE VERSES YOU ARE ROBBING ISRAEL OF THEIR PROPHETIC AND COVENANT PROMISES

I am not robbing anyone, God gives blessings to the rightous, why do you feel he should also bless the wicked, those who rejected him?
What happens to the Jews who follow antichrist? they are from the nation of Israel, are they saved too?

Let me ask you a question
How does it brake any of Gods promises if only the rightous in Israel are saved?

AND IT IS ALSO A DEMONSTRATION OF WHY COVENANT BELIEVERS MUST SAY THEY ARE "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN TRY AND SHOW THAT THE PROMISES FOR THE REAL ISRAEL S FOR THEM

The promises are for all those who believe. Jews and Gentiles, paul makes this quite clear

Romans 9:8 we have already shown the context but once again the quote of verse 8 seems to have errors ...i quote

THAT IS THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH (ISHMAEL) THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF THE GOD BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE(ISAAC) ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED

The context is not talking about Ishmael and Isaac, we know the context because of verse 6
Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended [b]from Israel are Israel
again if you want to understand the context, look at chapter 11 and see the unbelieving Jews were broken off so that believing Gentiles could be grafted in

Because God excludes those who reject him and invites in those who seek him, does not make his promises void


Herald
great list thanks

bloodbought why is the church in heaven if Christ is on earth?

[onesiphorus]

dear jaydub
Lets continue then in another passage of your choice ..Romans 9
verse 4 Who are Israelites to whom pertaineth ...the adoption , and the glory . and the covenants , and the giving of the law , and the service of God and the promises

Romans 6 ...for they are not all Israel who are of Israel

this verse is explaine in the following verses and this passage proceeds into chapters 10 , 11
11:19 thou wilt say then ..the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in

11:20 well because of unbelief they were broken off ..and thou standest by faith ... be not high minded but fear

23 God is able to graft tem in again

25 for I would not have you ignorant in the mystery lest you should be wise in your own conceit ....that blindness is happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles be come

26 Ans so "all" Israel shall be saved ..there shall come a deliverer out of Zion ..that is JERUSALEM

JEsus of nazareth came out of Bethleheh

in te time of the millenium Christ will come out of Zion ..Jerusalem ...not bethlehem

You are comparing sunday with chocolate cake
The church the body of Christ saved through the blood at the cross gave salvation to all Jew or gentile in the dispensation of grace of Christ , a gospel revealed by Christ to Paul , a secret kept hidden since before the world began ..This salvation is by faith alone and not by works , in the body there is neither jew nor greek etc we are all new creatures birthed "in Christ "
Galatians warns saints saved in this dispensation (this particular time ) that the gospel that acts of works that judaisers were telling the galatians they they needed to complete their salvation was a anathema

THis is the gospel of grace and is how anyone can be saved today bt grace through faith the bodies promises are spiritual and heavenly


The people of God ...ISRAEL have been promised a restoration of the kingdom of Israel , this message promises the people of God ....Israel salvation if enduring to the end the time of Jacobs trouble their promises are physical , earthly and not spiritual and heavenly

Same plan , same savior , same blood , same cross , different promises ..different messages ... and you cannot compare what Paul is referring to in Galatians 6 with what he is talking about in Romans 9 to 12 , completely different context as I say its like trying to compare a lamp with susan

I am not debating verses where you say that is not what it says because that is exactly what the verses say about Isaac that is what it says in verse 7 etc of Romans 9 in its context

If you want to continue in the belief that the promises for the future kingdom of Israel is incorrect then believe it , nothing I say is going to change it , but if the scriptures in their correct context does not fit in to that belief dont blame the scriptures ,

I have no denominational doctrines to try and fit scripture into I just tell it as it says it so if you do not agree it makes no odds to me
You ask me to explain in the guise of seeking but you do not want to seek because of your preconceived doctrines and beliefs , which is fine , i dont have a problem with that

[Jay Dub]

Romans 9
8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Romans 9:8
we have already shown the context but once again the quote of verse 8 seems to have errors ...i quote

THAT IS THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH (ISHMAEL) THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF THE GOD BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE(ISAAC) ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED

not the same is it and do you know how i know its talking of Isaac

VERSE 7 NEITHER BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN ....BUT....IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED

So once again how is Paul speaking of the "church the body of Christ "

Onesiphorus you are right to a point, the verse is talking about Isaac, but the verse is talking about faith, it is faith that saved Abraham. It was his faith that caused God to see him as righteous. This is what the verse is talking about. Paul is showing us we are saved through faith, and because of our faith we are Abraham's offspring. It is because of our faith we too have been grafted in to the family of God. This is the meaning of the verse

[onesiphorus]

Dear Jay Dub , i quite agree what you are saying about it being a type for faith