the commandments of Jesus

[ProphecyKid]

The concept of the 7th day being a day of rest is seen after creation.

The commandemnt to keep this day holy is not in scripture until the commandments are given to Israel.

The idea is that the sabbath day should be dedicated to the worship of God. As New Testament believers every day is dedicated to worshiping God. There is no need for a separate day. There is no command in the NT to refrain form work on the Sabbath day or on the 7th day. The rest for the believer is
1) Now from his working for salvation and
2) in eternity from all work when we will continue to worship God and our Saviour jesus Christ.

Did those in the OT have to work for their salvation? Were they saved by works?

The notion that in the NT we rest from out works of salvation is wrong because the OT believers were not saved by works. All men are saved by grace. Why do we need a command to rest from works on the Sabbath in the NT if its already apart of the 10 commandments. When Jesus came and lived out the law he showed us how to keep them. He explained them. He kept the Sabbath the way it should be kept. He did the Lord's work and the Sabbath and he said that it was not against the law to do good on the Sabbath. Jesus when showing what the Sabbath was about never said you can now do your own work. He never said or did anything that was against the Sabbath command. So as followers of Jesus why should we?

[Jay Dub]

This is the question I am going to ask now. Had the people back then entered into that rest would they still have to keep the weekly Sabbath? The rest as I see it as refered to in Hebrews is not the Sabbath although reference is made to the weekly Sabbath in that same passage.

I am not sure I understand your question. Do you mean the Jews, when you say the people back then. Back when? If you mean Jews yes they had to keep the Sabbath. It is part of the Law and they were required to keep the Law

This rest was first offered before Jesus came and died. If this rest is supposed to be the reality of the Sabbath then how could it exist before the reality (Jesus) came. Jesus is the reality of all the shadows. How can the reality of the sacrificial lamb be given when Jesus did not yet come.

If this is confusing just read it again. This rest was given before Jesus was come so how can this rest be a reality of the Sabbath. And why would God need to rest on the Sabbath anyway? God never sacrificed a goat, he never did any ordinance for atonement of sins, why would God need to keep a shadow in the garden of Eden

God rested on the seventh day. He created the earth moon sun stars and man, then he rested This is when God entered his rest, but because of the fall in the garden, man could never enter into Gods rest. The Sabbath rest was pointing to Gods rest. We can only enter into Gods rest through Jesus Christ. He is our rest
His atonement for sin opens the door for us to enter into Gods rest, this is Why I see the Sabbath as pointing to Gods rest. I see it as a shadow of things to come. I believe the Sabbath rest was fulfilled in him
I believe he fulfilled all the Law, the law is one Law not just ceremonial laws but all of them are fulfilled in him

[ProphecyKid]

I am not sure I understand your question. Do you mean the Jews, when you say the people back then. Back when? If you mean Jews yes they had to keep the Sabbath. It is part of the Law and they were required to keep the Law

Well yes, the rest was first offered to the Israelites. So we do not have to keep the law now because it was fulfilled? Is that what you are saying.

God rested on the seventh day. He created the earth moon sun stars and man, then he rested This is when God entered his rest, but because of the fall in the garden, man could never enter into Gods rest. The Sabbath rest was pointing to Gods rest. We can only enter into Gods rest through Jesus Christ. He is our rest
His atonement for sin opens the door for us to enter into Gods rest, this is Why I see the Sabbath as pointing to Gods rest. I see it as a shadow of things to come. I believe the Sabbath rest was fulfilled in him
I believe he fulfilled all the Law, the law is one Law not just ceremonial laws but all of them are fulfilled in him.

I don't understand something. God rested on the 7th day, and at the same time blessed and sanctified that day. At that time the fall had not yet taken place. I don't think God blessed and sanctified and made Holy the seventh day for himself to rest. Even then he set aside a day. What really was the purpose of God resting. He could have made the entire world on one day but he purposefully stretched it to 6 days. It therefore means that he didn't rest on the 7 day because he needed to. Why did he do it?

[Onesiphorus]

PK agreed

[Jay Dub]

Well yes, the rest was first offered to the Israelites. So we do not have to keep the law now because it was fulfilled? Is that what you are saying.



I don't understand something. God rested on the 7th day, and at the same time blessed and sanctified that day. At that time the fall had not yet taken place. I don't think God blessed and sanctified and made Holy the seventh day for himself to rest. Even then he set aside a day. What really was the purpose of God resting. He could have made the entire world on one day but he purposefully stretched it to 6 days. It therefore means that he didn't rest on the 7 day because he needed to. Why did he do it?

I agree also, God needed no rest. Gods rest is not for him, but for man.

We will all one day enter into his rest, because of our faith in Jesus. I don't understand why you think Gods rest has something to do with our fall. It was created for man, but because of our sin we could not enter into Gods rest, but because of the atonement we can now enter his rest.

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, [B]God would not have spoken later about another day.[/B] 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for those who enter God's rest also rest from their own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

I see it as our Sabbath rest is now Jesus Christ. Paul tells us to make every effort to enter into that rest. It is no longer about a day, but a life style.

When we become Christians we are then born of the Spirit and there is a rebirth and we seek to please God and love God. Our Sabbath is no longer a day a week, but it has become our lives.

So we do not have to keep the law now because it was fulfilled? Is that what you are saying.

The law that God has written on our hearts, I believe we are to follow.
I believe Jesus fulfilled all the Law. In that way I fulfill the commandment to remember the Sabbath everyday, through Jesus Christ

There really is only two places where we will disagree on the Law, if you believe we are to follow it. One is the Sabbath and I have given you the reasons I believe I don't need to follow it to the Letter and the other is the
the Dietary laws

The dietary Laws are ceremonial laws, but besides that, there is this

Deu 14:21 ¶ Ye shall not eat [of] any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that [is] in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

God allows gentiles to eat this food and allows them to sell it to Gentiles, Jews are not allowed, but Gentiles are.

[ProphecyKid]

We will all one day enter into his rest, because of our faith in Jesus. I don't understand why you think Gods rest has something to do with our fall. It was created for man, but because of our sin we could not enter into Gods rest, but because of the atonement we can now enter his rest.

Lets try at much as possible to stick to the bible and its reasons for given things. We are never told anywhere that we could not enter into God's rest because of the sin of man since the fall. Those to who the rest was first preached did not enter because of unbelief. The atonement was not made when the rest was first offered. God was not setting them up for failure. They could have entered if they believed. So to say that they could not enter because the atonement was not made is not correct since they could have and were punished for not entering.

And my point is the the Sabbath has nothing to do with our fall. It is independent of what happened at the fall of man. If Jesus did not have to come and die, if Adam and Eve had not sinned, would God have still blessed the 7th day and hallowed it? There is no reason to believe he would not since he did it when the world was perfect.

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, [B]God would not have spoken later about another day.[/B] 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for those who enter God's rest also rest from their own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

I see it as our Sabbath rest is now Jesus Christ. Paul tells us to make every effort to enter into that rest. It is no longer about a day, but a life style.

When they were offered the rest the first time what was it about?

When we become Christians we are then born of the Spirit and there is a rebirth and we seek to please God and love God. Our Sabbath is no longer a day a week, but it has become our lives.

But the bible does not say that. Did Moses have the spirit, was he controlled by God. Didn't Moses commit his life to God everyday. Didn't Moses have a lifestyle of total surrender to the will of God. But did Moses yet rest on the 7th day of the week.

The law that God has written on our hearts, I believe we are to follow.
I believe Jesus fulfilled all the Law. In that way I fulfill the commandment to remember the Sabbath everyday, through Jesus Christ

How did Jesus fulfill the Sabbath? It is not about how you would like to fulfill it or how you see it best but about how Jesus wants us to do it. Jesus lived out the law in his life and we follow his example as Christians (followers of God). Jesus said or did nothing to suggest that the 7th day was no longer significant and no longer holy, but he fulfilled that law and told us that it is not against the Sabbath law to do good on the Sabbath.

There really is only two places where we will disagree on the Law, if you believe we are to follow it. One is the Sabbath and I have given you the reasons I believe I don't need to follow it to the Letter and the other is the
the Dietary laws

The dietary Laws are ceremonial laws, but besides that, there is this

Deu 14:21 ¶ Ye shall not eat [of] any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that [is] in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

God allows gentiles to eat this food and allows them to sell it to Gentiles, Jews are not allowed, but Gentiles are.

Like I said somewhere else, the letter of the law does not conflict with the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law expands the meaning of the letter. Let me try to summarize in a few points why I do not hold to your view on the Sabbath and to make it easy you can just respond to this alone instead of all I said earlier if you so desire.

1. If we could only enter into God's rest through Jesus and his atonement of the cross then how can this rest be offered to the Israelites back in the old testament when Jesus had not yet come.

2. If the 7th day Sabbath is a shadow of God's rest which you say we enter into everyday, then why did God choose to rest on the 7th day. Why did he decide to bless, sanctify and hallow one day in the week if his rest is really about everyday. We are told in the 4th commandments to keep the Sabbath because God created the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh.

3. I do believe the rest in Hebrews is not referring to the Sabbath. What I see is that both can exist together. There is nothing to suggest that that rest is a replacement for the Sabbath. Jesus when speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD did say to pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath day. Even at that time Jesus expected the Sabbath to still be acknowledged.

4. I said before that all the shadows had something to do with atonement through ordinances and sacrifices. The 2 passages where the shadows are mentioned as shadows in the NT we see mention made to the handwriting of ordinances (Col 2:14) and sacrifices (Heb 10:1). The yearly and monthly sabbath says were given because of these feasts and ordinances. The 7th day Sabbath was given because of creation and has nothing to do with these ordinances. Therefore, it cannot be a shadow as the bible associates the shadows with ordinances and sacrifices.

And btw, the dietary laws are dietary laws. There are not ceremonial because ceremonial laws deal with ceremonies and ordinances that happen at specific times and days and so on. Dietary laws have to do with everyday consumption of food. It is more a law of everyday lifestyle so it is not ceremonial.

[Bloodbought]

Let get back to basics

In six days God created the heaven & earth and everything in them. On the seventh day God rested from creating.
Gen 1 v 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

When God made man he had no "Work" to do. After the fall when the curse came man had to work.
Gen 3 v 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is no mention here about only having to work six days.

The first instruction not to work comes in Exodus 12:16 On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat—that is all you may do.

In the Old Testament people enjoyed forgiveness through the sacrifices which they made. Not through their works. These sacrifices had efficacy because they looked forward to the sacrifice of Christ.

In the same way they enjoyed the rest of the Sabbath on ONE day each week. This also looks forward to the continuous rest we have continually in Christ (spiritually speaking). They had to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. To the believer, since the death of Christ, every day is already holy.

[ProphecyKid]

Let get back to basics

In six days God created the heaven & earth and everything in them. On the seventh day God rested from creating.
Gen 1 v 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

When God made man he had no "Work" to do. After the fall when the curse came man had to work.

Its true he had no work to do. But was it a coincidence that an omnipotent God really had to take 6 days to create the world? He could have done it all in one day but he purposefully made it in 6 days to 'Rest' on the 7th.

But since you have raised the point that before the fall man had no "work' to do, then would have everyday been a Sabbath for them until the fall?

Gen 3 v 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

There is no mention here about only having to work six days.

There is no mention about returning anything to God either. No mention about giving to those who are needy. Because its not mentioned right there it does not mean it does not exist.

The first instruction not to work comes in Exodus 12:16 On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat—that is all you may do.

When was the first instruction to refrain from coveting your neighbour's goods? When was the first instruction to not take God's name in vain. However we are told that Abraham kept God's charge, his commandments, and statutes. What were they, were they mentioned? They were not mentioned so we cannot say that because something was not mentioned it does not exist. At some time God must have told Noah or his ancestors how to distinguish between clean and unclean animals but it isn't mentioned.

If you work with what was mentioned you find that made a Sabbath day not for him to rest but for mankind. How logical then, is it to say that he made it, kept it and no one bothered with it until the children of Israel. If God blessed, sanctified and hallowed the seventh day would he keep it a secret from mankind? Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man so does that mean man after the children of Israel but not Adam, or Noah, or Abraham?

In the Old Testament people enjoyed forgiveness through the sacrifices which they made. Not through their works. These sacrifices had efficacy because they looked forward to the sacrifice of Christ.

Where do we find that? Its in the bible.

In the same way they enjoyed the rest of the Sabbath on ONE day each week. This also looks forward to the continuous rest we have continually in Christ (spiritually speaking). They had to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. To the believer, since the death of Christ, every day is already holy.

Where do we find that? Not in the bible. Jesus Christ did not die to make days holy but people. If since Jesus died everyday is holy then it means that God's creation was erroneous. God made 6 days very good and one day holy and sanctified. But if Jesus dies to make everyday holy then God must have missed something. Why did not God make everyday holy.

This is the problem I have with this notion. If we are saying that spiritual rest in Christ replaced physical rest, it means that before Christ no one had spiritual rest. Spiritual rest was kept from mankind until Jesus came and died or at least it was given on only the Sabbath. But if they did not have spiritual rest then what would they have? Spiritual unrest or a troubled spirit? Did Moses not have spiritual rest.

[Jay Dub]

1. If we could only enter into God's rest through Jesus and his atonement of the cross then how can this rest be offered to the Israelites back in the old testament when Jesus had not yet come.

It is not the same rest, The Sabbath rest pointed to Jesus. The old testament points to Jesus who is our true rest

2. If the 7th day Sabbath is a shadow of God's rest which you say we enter into everyday, then why did God choose to rest on the 7th day. Why did he decide to bless, sanctify and hallow one day in the week if his rest is really about everyday. We are told in the 4th commandments to keep the Sabbath because God created the world in 6 days and rested on the seventh.

God created everything in six days and on the seventh day he rested, and he never went back to the work of creation, it was finished and it was good

It is also interesting to take note that the first six days of creation start there was evening and morning day one and evening and morning day two and so on. On the seventh day there is no mention of evening or morning, Gods rest is eternal

This was not the same rest the Israelites had, there rest was part of the works of the law our salvation has nothing to do with our works. Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ

3. I do believe the rest in Hebrews is not referring to the Sabbath. What I see is that both can exist together. There is nothing to suggest that that rest is a replacement for the Sabbath. Jesus when speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD did say to pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath day. Even at that time Jesus expected the Sabbath to still be acknowledged.

I agree it is not speaking of a weekly Sabbath but it is speaking of our eternal Sabbath. All of the old testament points to Christ, we could list quite a few things just off the top of our head, I am sure. Why then is it so hard to think that he also fulfills the Sabbath. When in Christ we rest from all our works of salvation.
We no longer need to follow the works of the Law, because we are in Christ. In Christ we have rest.

The destruction of Jerusalem, This is a good question and I have asked myself the same question. Maybe it is because he is speaking to the Jews. Knowing the Jews will reject him and his message, since the Jews reject him, we know they will still be following the Law

4. I said before that all the shadows had something to do with atonement through ordinances and sacrifices. The 2 passages where the shadows are mentioned as shadows in the NT we see mention made to the handwriting of ordinances (Col 2:14) and sacrifices (Heb 10:1). The yearly and monthly sabbath says were given because of these feasts and ordinances. The 7th day Sabbath was given because of creation and has nothing to do with these ordinances. Therefore, it cannot be a shadow as the bible associates the shadows with ordinances and sacrifices.

The whole old testament points to Jesus. The seventh day Sabbath was because the works of creation had ended, God will never again go back to the works of creation
They were finished as our works for salvation were finished at the cross and we will never again enter back into the works of the Law

[ProphecyKid]

It is not the same rest, The Sabbath rest pointed to Jesus. The old testament points to Jesus who is our true rest

So hebrews 4 speaks of 2 different rests plus the Sabbath? So the rest that they didnt enter into because of unbelief is different to the one we enter into now through faith? And it is not the entire old testament that points to Jesus. It is the shadows found in the old testament that points to Jesus.

God created everything in six days and on the seventh day he rested, and he never went back to the work of creation, it was finished and it was good. It is also interesting to take note that the first six days of creation start there was evening and morning day one and evening and morning day two and so on. On the seventh day there is no mention of evening or morning, Gods rest is eternal

That argument cannot work because it will completely destroy the weekly cycle. We cannot say that the first 6 days had an end but the seventh day had no end. The fact that the seventh day is actually a day means it has the beginning and end of the other days. If it was eternal it could have never been called a day.

This was not the same rest the Israelites had, there rest was part of the works of the law our salvation has nothing to do with our works. Our salvation is based on our relationship with Christ

The rest that they failed to enter into was about their belief in God. They did not enter because of unbelief and not works. Does the law have anything to do with our relationship with God? If we love God would we not obey him?

I agree it is not speaking of a weekly Sabbath but it is speaking of our eternal Sabbath. All of the old testament points to Christ, we could list quite a few things just off the top of our head, I am sure. Why then is it so hard to think that he also fulfills the Sabbath. When in Christ we rest from all our works of salvation.

The bible tells us what points to God and we must have error as long as we add our own things. The bible clearly tells us what it was that pointed to Jesus. You include the 7th day Sabbath to the list but the bible never tells us that Jesus replaced it. Jesus fulfilled it of course but you believe fulfill to mean something different to me. To fulfill simply put is to fill to the fullest.

We no longer need to follow the works of the Law, because we are in Christ. In Christ we have rest.

So Jesus came and died to give us rest from keeping the law? God's rest from the beginning was about not keeping the law?

The destruction of Jerusalem, This is a good question and I have asked myself the same question. Maybe it is because he is speaking to the Jews. Knowing the Jews will reject him and his message, since the Jews reject him, we know they will still be following the Law

Wrong. He was speaking strictly to his disciples. And of course he knew that the holy spirit would have come upon them not long after he departed and they would come to full understanding of what he was teaching. Yet he told them to pray that their flight be not on the Sabbath day.

The whole old testament points to Jesus. The seventh day Sabbath was because the works of creation had ended, God will never again go back to the works of creation
They were finished as our works for salvation were finished at the cross and we will never again enter back into the works of the Law

It always revolves around the law. Remember you said that before Jesus came man could never enter in God's rest because they were fallen. But how did man fall? They disobeyed the command of God. But then you seem to suggest that the rest is all about ceasing from the 'works of the law'. So man could not enter the rest because they disobeyed the one law God gave, while the rest is all about not keeping the works of the law. Thats a contradiction that cannot be possibly true.