Gifts of the Spirit

[Chuckt]

[I]No offense intended but I shall take part in this discussion no longer.

I can't take part in a discussion where, if someone " questions ", it is inturn, "questioned ", as if to question, is unbiblical and anyone who questions is almost treated as a second class Christian by being told " You don't understand ". It is not unbiblical to question and test, it is " very " Biblical.

1 John 4:1

" Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world "

John gives us a command to test and then the reason to test.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove (dokimazō,G1381,test) all things; hold fast that which is good.

[DeaconDan]

Yes there is allot of misunderstanding on tongues I sat on a Assembly of God leadership board for awhile and I told the head many times and told them My objections to their belief which they say speaking in togues is the first initial sign of being baptised in the Holy Spirit,

Tongues as the initial sign of baptism in the Holy Spirit is AoG doctrine. As such, any leader in the AoG is obligated to at least provisionally accept that position.

but what I object to is the way Dan puts down the pentecostals and is very harsh in his way of speaking out, my point is that is wrong

The Bible is clear on men vs. women in leadership. The AoG embraces women in leadership. Denominations that follow the Bible on this issue do not put women in positions of leadership. Why does the AoG not follow the Bible? Other denominations that now allow women in leadership do so out of liberalism (i.e. they openly do not believe the Bible). What is the AoG's excuse? Not only does the AoG embrace women in leadership, but they have actually taken liberal steps (anti-male discrimination) to push women into leadership. This was done by not allowing any man to be on the ballot for an open seat in the Executive Presbytery last summer.

Where is the Holy Spirit to tell the AoG that tongues is not the initial sign of Baptism in the Holy Spirit? Where is the Holy Spirit to tell the AoG that they are not following the Bible on women in leadership? Where is the Holy Spirit guiding the AoG on any issue?

Am I harsh? I point out the facts. The rise of Pentecostalism has corresponded with the rise of post-Christian culture in western countries. How is it that the church has become so anemic with all this new Holy Ghost power? Somehow spewing random English phonics that no one understands just has not helped. Somehow sacrificing our Christian culture (e.g. traditional marriage, "Christmas break" in public schools) to liberals in exchange for liberal support in going after enemies of so-called Israel (e.g. Saddam and the WMDs most Pentacostals lied about, Iran and the Nuclear weapons program most Pentacostals are lying about) has not helped advance the Kingdom of God. Go figure.

A good part of the facts can be found in 2 Corith. as Paul explains It. I hope we can all get along as God wants us to but I seriously doubt that and I mean christians all over the world.

I agree with everything Paul says. But, Paul does not say that people in the AoG church will speak in tongues. The AoG church does not believe Paul when he says women should not be leaders. The AoG church does not believe Paul when he says no one should speak in tongues in church unless there is someone who understands what is being said. Paul does not say speaking in tongues is the initial sign of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. If there is anyone who does not believe the Bible, it is the AoG, not me.

If I were being harsh, I would make the case for Satan running the AoG.

[Galaen]

One question Dan - do you have anything positive to say on any subject relating to the Trinity of God?

[canny]

I don't know what that has to do with the thread Galaen ?


I have been elsewhere for an explanation of why tongues is used and I am happy with the result. Now I have something concrete to think about.

[Galaen]

No offense intended but I shall take part in this discussion no longer.

I can't take part in a discussion where, if someone " questions ", it is inturn, "questioned ", as if to question, is unbiblical and anyone who questions is almost treated as a second class Christian by being told " You don't understand ". Or Dan being told " there is no truth in what you say ".

Dan and myself have locked horns on occasions, sometimes quite forcibly but that doesn't stop me from agreeing with him on other matters. Ok, maybe I have raised an eyebrow at his delivery sometimes but on this occasion he isn't confusing the " gifts of the Spirit " with the " fruits of the Spirit " and no, I am not stating that Dan and I are right and everyone else is wrong, I am simply saying I agree with his sentiment of " questioning ". So there is truth in what Dan says in the area of questioning. It is not unbiblical to question and test, it is " very " Biblical.

1 John 4:1

" Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world "

John gives us a command to test and then the reason to test.
I know the word of God is truth, I don't need to be told that. Its all very well to have blind faith on hearing the word of God but to believe readily without testing the mouth it comes from is a very, very dangerous game.
You only have to watch the likes of Benny hinn followers after he has told them " believe the word of God " and the resulting hysteria after he has finished twisting it in such a way that it makes me almost want to vomit, to know that it is very, very dangerous not to test and question.

I don't think anyone here has said the gifts should not be tested but DD is adamant that the gift of tongues is wrong for today and that all Pentecostals are evil and harming the wider church of God. It is sad that he is not pulled up for this. This thread has become very divisive and some do not appear able to agree to disagree. I resent the fact that DD told me that things I had actually witnesses were wrong and from the enemy - I am able to discern the gifts because God has given me the gift of discernment and can therefore see when a person is not moving in the Holy Spirit. Why was DD left to say that the true gift of the Holy Spirit was a lie when he was not even there to see? Very unfair.

[Galaen]

I don't know what that has to do with the thread Galaen ?


I have been elsewhere for an explanation of why tongues is used and I am happy with the result. Now I have something concrete to think about.

It has everything to do with the thread. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of the trinity of God and every time anyone says they have seen or used the Gifts of The Holy Spirit DD jumps on them like a ton of bricks and says it is all of the enemy. As I have said several times, the enemy does mimick the Gifts of The Holy Spirit but that does not mean we should say ALL miraculous things are of the enemy. God does still work miracles on this earth today, it is not all trickery and I am very disapointed that a Christian site should allow such things to be said without any recourse

[canny]

Is there a place for the use of the Gifts of The Holy Spirit in todays world? Is there a place for them in the Church? Should we be seeking the Gifts of the Holy Spirit? Should we be using the Gifts Of The Holy Spirit? What do you think?

Dan is actually answering the OP.

[Galaen]

Dan is actually answering the OP.

Is there a place? Should we be seeking? NOT are are gifts genuine and he has gone all out to discredit the gifts given to us by The Holy Spirit

[canny]

Not everyone is going to agree with you in a debate, from the middle ground, I find Dan's delivery wanting ( but then so is mine ). I have also found other's wanting in here too.

[Galaen]

Not everyone is going to agree with you in a debate, from the middle ground, I find Dan's delivery wanting ( but then so is mine ). I have also found other's wanting in here too.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me but I do expect to be able to defend sound scriptural teaching on a Christian forum without being pulled up about it. I only retort at DD in this way because of his aggressive way. We are all lacking because not one of us has all the answers and I can accept that some will have difficulty with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (everyone has a right to their own opinion) but I cannot sit back and watch someone attack them without coming back at them. Have you observed me being like this with others on the forum? DD is reaping what he has sown.