Hell is a turn off

[ByHisGrace]

I don't think I can ever be comfortable with Christians who believe in eternal torment in hell fire...

I find it hard to understand how anyone could think God capable of torture...

I believe the traditional Christian doctine of hell... turns people away from God.

I'm interested to know Gary, are these and all your other comments really your thoughts. Or are you playing devils advocate?

[Jon-Marc]

Do you know there are good people in this world that spend their entire lives doing things for the good of others?

These people are full of love for there fellow man, they spend their lives working for charities caring for the poor in the third world...

There are many like this, working for charities, who do not believe in God... they spend their lives working away for the poor, without any thought of rewards!

I personally find that magnificent... they do it for love... not reward!

Those kinds of people do not have miserable lives, their lives are full of love and compassion.

Yes, but unfortunately they don't usually give God the glory. I agree that there are some very "good" people in the world--by human standards. God's standards, however, are much higher, and He has provided a way through Christ Jesus for all to attain that standard of perfection that He demands that seems unattainable to us.

We can't understand the ways and mind of God, because as He said in Isaiah 55:8,9: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

In Romans 9;20 it's written, "O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

We mortals somehow think we have the right to question God (I've been guilty of it) when we don't. We're not told to understand. We're told to live by faith and trust Him. We're told that ALL have sinned no matter how "good" they think they are by human standards. We're told in God's word that only through Jesus the Christ do we have any hope.

[gibby]

And to add to what Jon-Marc said, these people do their work for the glory of themselves. People look to them and not God and those "good" people can't save others from eternal damnation. Not to put down the good things the unsaved do, but all they are doing is making the world a nicer place to go to hell from. Only Jesus can save.

[IS IT I ?]

aint that the truth--

[Gary52]

Yes, but unfortunately they don't usually give God the glory.

Some of the good charitable people that I speak of don't believe in God, so giving glory to something they don't believe in would be illogical. Neither do they crave glory for themseves, they place others before themselves without any thought of heavenly reward. I personally knew people like this for over 15 years, they were a pleasure to be with.

We can't understand the ways and mind of God, because as He said in Isaiah 55:8,9: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

That's a great piece of scripture, I like it.

We mortals somehow think we have the right to question God

Not if one does not believe in God, as many in the world today do not. People who do not believe in God do not question Him.

We're told to live by faith

Living by faith... interesting.

Do not most religions live be faith... like muslims in Islam...

[streetsinger]

Gary, whether or not the world believe that there is a God, and that he sacrificed his son for their salvation is immaterial, Christians do. If there is a God and he has the power to do whatever he pleases, then whatever you think or say makes no difference, he's not going to seek your council anyway. Good and evil doesn't come into the equation, as to know of them and to consider them is to act under the power of original sin, when now, for Christians, all things work to the good and there is no condemnation. To discuss this subject is futile, because it calls for one to either believe or disbelieve God, anyone who moves in the Spirit will not be convinced by your arguments and be swayed to disbelieve, and anyone not moving in the the Spirit will never understand a regenerate mind and understand in the way of one. As for hell and who's destiny it is to reside there, if you know God and are blessed with love he bestows on his people, then you would be convinced that if anyone was to end up in hell, then it would be entirely in accordance with justice and for God to not administer justice, would not only be an injustice to those who suffered at the hands of the perpetrator, but would make God out to be a liar. If you place more credence in the beliefs of your friends than God, what are you doing on a Christian debating forum, you'd be far better engaged on a humanist one?

[Gary52]

Gary, whether or not the world believe that there is a God, and that he sacrificed his son for their salvation is immaterial,

I thought that it was the duty of Christains to spread the good new to the world... therefore it cannot be immaterial if they don't believe!

If there is a God and he has the power to do whatever he pleases, then whatever you think or say makes no difference,

You say, "If there is a God" do you have doubts? Does whatever I say or do mean anything to God? I would say yes... therefore it makes a difference.

he's not going to seek your council.

But I am seeking His.

Good and evil doesn't come into the equation, as to know of them and to consider them is to act under the power of original sin, when now, for Christians, all things work to the good and there is no condemnation. To discuss this subject is futile, because it calls for one to either believe or disbelieve God,

If discussing this subject helps one to understand God and His plan, then it is far from futile.

anyone who moves in the Spirit will not be convinced by your arguments and be swayed to disbelieve, and anyone not moving in the the Spirit will never understand a regenerate mind and understand in the way of one.

You have lost me here.. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything... I am looking for answers that I may be convinced.

As for hell and who's destiny it is to reside there, if you know God and are blessed with love he bestows on his people, then you would be convinced that if anyone was to end up in hell, then it would be entirely in accordance with justice

Yes, I see something hard to grasp there... Is burning his people in fire, bestowing love on them? Do you show your children love by giving them pain by burning them with a lighted candle?

and for God to not administer justice, would not only be an injustice to those who suffered at the hands of the perpetrator,

That sounds like revenge to me, there is no love in revenge. No forgiveness equals no love.

If you place more credence in the beliefs of your friends than God, what are you doing on a Christian debating forum, you'd be far better engaged on a humanist one?

I don't remember saying I place credence in anyones belief... and I am on a Christian forum because I believe in God, and seeking understanding.

[streetsinger]

Point (1) It's immaterial to God, in as much as, whatever they believe won't change His actions.
Point (2) I was speaking from the viewpoint of an unbelieving world, and whatever you say and do, will make no difference to what he has already decided.
Point (3) If you were seeking his council you would heed what is written, which you don't, therefore you cannot be seeking his council.
Point (4) So far you have not tried to understand any of the answers offered to your questions, which means the people here are obviously not the ones you seek, so why waste your time?
Point (5) I suggest you look to where the answers are to be found, Scripture, Jesus gives the most convincing answers.
Point (6) God's people are those that accept and believe in his son, the offer is there for all to embrace, if someone does not, that is their concern, it does not invalidate the offer.
Point (7) It might sound like revenge to you but to others it sounds like justice. If Robert Mugabe had slaughtered your family and you saw him embraced by God, you might question his justice.
Point (8) If you believed in God you would accept his word.

[titus212]

Like most of the Bible it is open to interpretation. First thing is to remember it is a parable and not a direct statment.

So what do YOU believe Jesus is trying to say in the Matthew 25:31-46 passage? What is YOUR interpretation?

Yes, it is a parable, but what do you think a parable is? Jesus used parables to give people a glimpse of what is real. Most of his parables were about what the Kindom of Heaven is like (see Matthew 25:1-13 ). He used "word pictures" to convey spiritual truth.

The parable about the sheep and goats is about the time when Jesus returns to this Earth and he will judge all the people, the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous WILL live forever, with Him in Heaven, and the unrighteous will be cast into the "Lake of Fire" with Satan and will no longer exist. (Actually, the verse I wanted to point out was 46, which says, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." The word "punishment" has a different meaning than word "torture".)

Varlyn (The VMan)

[Gary52]

Point (1) It's immaterial to God, in as much as, whatever they believe won't change His actions.

Interesting... that makes God sound like some kind of robot programned to follow a straight line. Do you know for sure that God cannot change His mind... Is there scripture to back up the view that God cannot change His mind? Ummm... I shouldn't really use the words, "God and cannot", in the same sentence. Is their any scripture that backs up the view that God won't change His mind?

Point (2) I was speaking from the viewpoint of an unbelieving world, and whatever you say and do, will make no difference to what he has already decided.

I see you used the words "IF" on behalf of the unbelievers. Does the thoughts and actions of any human being make no difference to what God has already decided?

Point (3) If you were seeking his council you would heed what is written, which you don't, therefore you cannot be seeking his council.

That's a strange thing to say... I said I am seeking God's council... Why would you say I don't. Unless you don't know what I mean by seeking His council. I pray to the Father for guidence that He will put me on the right path and for understanding. That is what I mean by seeking His council. Of course I also pray the Lords Prayer, and I pray for people around me that I think needs Gods touch also. I hope you understand now what I mean by seeking His council.

Point (4) So far you have not tried to understand any of the answers offered to your questions, which means the people here are obviously not the ones you seek, so why waste your time?

I'm afraid to tell you that I have tried to understand the views that people have kindly offered me. I'm still trying to understand them, sorry if I'm a little slow. I don't feel I'm wasting my time, seeking God's truth is a worthy cause.

Point (5) I suggest you look to where the answers are to be found, Scripture, Jesus gives the most convincing answers.

Yes, of course that is a good suggestion, and I do read scripture, but I believe discussion about scripture and the nature of God with ones fellow man is essential.

Point (6) God's people are those that accept and believe in his son, the offer is there for all to embrace, if someone does not, that is their concern, it does not invalidate the offer.

Absolutely, but I have to disagree with you on the point of giving up on people that do not accept His Son. One must persevere before deciding to shake the dust.

Point (7) It might sound like revenge to you but to others it sounds like justice. If Robert Mugabe had slaughtered your family and you saw him embraced by God, you might question his justice.

Oh, I believe in justice... If I saw Robert Mugabe being embraced by God after he slaughtered my family... I would know God has forgiven him... I might find it hard... but I'm only human.

Point (8) If you believed in God you would accept his word.

There is no if about it, I do believe in God. God's word is the Bible, which I do accept as God's word. I am also trying to understand God's word.