Hell is a turn off

[Bloodbought]

Jesus said "The Son of man has power on earth to forgive sin". It is NEVER said that sin can be forgiven after death.

The bible also states Ro 6:23 "that the wages of sin is death". Death is finality. There is no life after death.

When a person dies their name is removed from the book of life UNLESS the have recieved the gift of eternal life from God(Rom 6:23)

Absolute truth You seem to think that hell and the lake of fire is punishment for sin. Like a prison sentence to be served and then the guilty party is released. People will be in the lake of fire because they refused to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Sin and sinners can NEVER enter a Holy God's heaven, and since as I said above sin can only be forgiven on earth. Then unless a person believes while on earth then they will be with the edevil and his angels in the lake of fire for ever and ever.

When you suggest the certain words have been wrongly translated by all the leading authorities of the Greek language who have been involved in the many translation, are you suggesting that you know better?

In the story of the rich man who lifted up his eyes being in torment. He was told that there "is a great gulf fixed". That means to me that there was no way of escape.

If "eternal" and "everlasting" etc are for undetermined periods and the dead are in the spiritual realm where time does not exist then that to me means un-ending

[inquisitive]

If "eternal" and "everlasting" etc are for undetermined periods and the dead are in the spiritual realm where time does not exist then that to me means un-ending

I agree, and mentioned the time thing elsewhere, what does it matter what the word means, regarding length of time, when time is irrelevant to the issue in hand.

So will time exist then? and if so, is the spiritual really contained within time?

[Nyoka]

As others have said Jesus came and paid the price for our sins on the cross. Those who accept what Jesus has done have accepted the payment He made on their behalf. Because of this I don't have to go through any punishment for my sins. Anyone who rejects what Jesus has done has no payment made on their behalf due to rejecting the payment Jesus made. These people will have to pay for their sins themselves. That is what the lake of fire and hell is about. IMO they will not be saved at the end of it as they rejected the payment made for them.

I can find nowhere in the bible that says that we can be saved after death. Even the parable of the rich man and Lazarus doesn't show that there is salvation after death. Jesus and the apostles never spoke of a being able to be saved after death. As Hebrews says: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment.

[JIP]

AT, I apologize for the sarcasm. However, I feel we are 2 passing ships at sea on this topic. Universal salvation is a deception that you have allowed yourself to fall into, IMO. I don't think that God's Word requires a theology degree or loads of knowledge to interpret meanings of words. If it did, then we would all have to ditch our bibles and have to rely on those that do. Then we find ourselves listening to what man says, not God. Why would the Lord allow His word to be so flawed over time? I am sorry, but I don't buy it. When I read God's word, I read what it says. I don't take every word and try to find an alternative definition to support ideas that go against what His word clearly states.

1 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 1:8-10

[Jon-Marc]

Actually, no, I don't thoroughly read every word of the posts to which I reply (especially LONG posts), and I admit I often miss the point. However, one's point often gets lost in a multitude of words. I like posts that are short and to the point.

I was replying to the statement that the lake of fire isn't eternal when it is. I don't remember saying that hell and death will be tormented--just that they will be cast in the lake of fire as stated in Revelation. If I missed whatever other point that was hiding in there I apologize. I see something that catches my eye, and I pounce on it. You can, of course, ignore anything I write since I generally don't know what I'm talking about according to some people.

[Absolute Truth]

Jesus said "The Son of man has power on earth to forgive sin". It is NEVER said that sin can be forgiven after death.

Hi Bloodbought,

Please take caution when determining whether a passage contains statements of limitations as this passage does not. No where in scripture (including this passage) will you ever find a statement which limits Christ in any way from saving after physical death. No where in this passage does it state that Chrsit can "ONLY" save in this life yet you have consciously inserted it into this passage in order to make it fit your theology. I am not trying to be rash but rather to clarify.

The bible also states Ro 6:23 "that the wages of sin is death". Death is finality. There is no life after death

.

Again, There is no passage stating that death in a finality. It is THROUGH death that we find life as I have clarified through scripture in my previous posts. Lest we die to self we shall not life but if we crucify ourselves and judge ourselves we shall not be judged and we shall recieve life and the second death has no power over us. Again, we cannot be born again until we experience death. Death is not as powerful as Christian theology makes it out to be. Christ is the beginning and the END, not death. Death does not continue for eternity and neither could it. Once death has exhausted its usfulness it will be swallowed up in victory.

The wages of sin is death and those who have not the life of Christ are dead already (spiritually) even though they walk and breath. Those who have been born again have life but more than mere walking and breathing. They have life MORE ABUNDANTLY as we have the earnest (downpayment) of the spirit until we are glorified and have the fullness of the spirit and recieve our reward to enter the kingdom age for the millenial rest. All others remain in "death" (not having this life we have) until their resurrection from that state of being spiritually dead and are purified and cleansed through the lake of fire (Christ and His elect) at which time we shall judge angels. Their only place for cleansing is to be thrown into what is basically the wrath of God in order for them to also be make whole.

As I have noted before using 3 scriptural witnessess, it is not the man himself that is destroyed in this sybolic fire but that which defials the man. There shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and it is through this process that they suffer loss but they themselves shall be saved (1Cor3:15)

When a person dies their name is removed from the book of life UNLESS the have recieved the gift of eternal life from God(Rom 6:23)

Once again you have submitted a statement of limitation where one is not present. Yes their names are blotted out of the book of "LIFE" but this is not stating that they merely recieve "death" and never live again. Even Ireal is promised at some future time to be grafted back into the olive tree which is their own place but for now they are counted as enemies for our sakes. All mankind will someday have life and immortality but those who are the vessils of wrath will never get the oppotunity to experience the kingdom rest and to rule and reign with Christ. Chrsist kingdom reign is not for eternity but it is "aionion", and age or more precisely at least 2 ages or dispensations. For the most part of this particular "aion (age) Christ and His elect recieve their rest from all their labors but IN the end it is time to judge the world and as Isaiah states "when thy Judgements are in the world the world will learn righteousness. It is in the full fall harvest (feast of tabernacles) that all are called to drink of the water of life freely and Jesus will never extinguish that offer untill all have been subdued and all are under His feet and once this is done He shalll put down all rule and authority and offer up the kingdom to God the Father that God may be all in all.
As a final note you state that death is a finality and if you do not confess the lord as savior before you die than that is it, it is final and there is not turning back. Well let me ask you, of what signifigance to you is the fact that while Jesus was still in His flesh and had not possessed the keys of hades and death he had the power to raise the dead? If Christ could raise the dead and minister to them while yet in His flesh how much more power do you think He has now???? This is having a form of Godlyness but DENYING the power thereof (Of God)

Absolute truth You seem to think that hell and the lake of fire is punishment for sin. Like a prison sentence to be served and then the guilty party is released. People will be in the lake of fire because they refused to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Actually I do not see it as punishment for sin as Jesus took that punishment for us. The punishment was death was it not? Jesus dies for the sins of the world and He is the savior of the world.

Allow me to clarify something for you if I may. Jesus died to pay the wage that we should have paid. We no longer have to pay that wage right? Now Even though Christ paid that wage we all must walk in newness of life. The elect of God are being tried now while in their flesh in order to purify our conscience and our mind. This is where our duties lie. We are to still yet crucify our own flesh and walk after Chrsit right? You see, This is not a punishment but a requirement as we are to follow in the steps of Christ. He diedin the flesh and we are to die TO our flesh and once we are "DEAD" to the flesh (carnal mind, carnal nature etc, etc) than the only thing we await is the redemption of our bodies and our glorification. At that point we are made whole.
Now, Those that are not walking in this now and crucifying the carnal mind and nature (flesh) must go through it by way of wrath. Their trilas and tribulations are metered out in wrath and will be consentrated and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth but the end result is that their carnal mind, nature etc wil be destroy, perished consummed etc, by God who is the consumming fire. They must also experience the same death the elect are called to endure in this life but it will be much more intense. In conclusion, the carnal nature of the elect is consummed now in their lifetime while in the flesh. This is the first death and it must first begin with the house of God. The second death is one to be avoided if it is at all possible since it will not be a walk in the park. In the end we will have all experienced "DEATH", yes the death that Christianity proclaims is so final that it includes the man himself in direct opposition to what the scriptures teach. Death is not final but death itself will come to an end.

Sin and sinners can NEVER enter a Holy God's heaven, and since as I said above sin can only be forgiven on earth. Then unless a person believes while on earth then they will be with the edevil and his angels in the lake of fire for ever and ever.

You are right, sin and sinners will nt enter the kingdom of heaven. You have the kingdom of heaven mixed up with eternity. The kingdom is not eternal. The kingdom that these sinners (that includes you and I since if we say we have no sin than we are liars right?) will not enter is the millenial kingdom. It is the time of rest from our l;abors and in the end we shall judge the world in righteousness. when that is complete jesus puts down all rule and authority and delivers up the kingdom to God the Father as I have repeatedly stated.

Unless a person believes in this life and does the will of the Father and keeps His commandments he shall not enter into this Kingdom age because no flesh shall inherrit the kingdom of heaven. This inheritance is Christs inheritance and we who believe will recieve the reward of entering into that inheritance but at a futre point at the consummation of the ages Jesus wil deliver up that kngdom to the Father as His work is completed he has finally drawn all men unto Him. After this there is no mention of etenral issue, not one iota of a passage covers anything beyond this point in scripture. So again, not forever and ever but for "aion aion" which is ages or times. God never promised us eternity, He promised us immortality which is deathlessness.

When you suggest the certain words have been wrongly translated by all the leading authorities of the Greek language who have been involved in the many translation, are you suggesting that you know better?

I know what I know by the grace of God and not of myself. It is the spirit that leads me into all truth. I know nothing and I am nothing. I am merely a vessil and not the operator. It is Christ who is in me. Do you see? Research has proven that there was a purpose behind translating these words falsely, It was not an mistake. The early Catholic Church coveted power in order to gain control of the masses. With a study of histry we do not have to dig very deep in order to see that it was fear that was the biggest weapon to achieve order from chaos and control. The early translators were forced to translate these words as such in order to become the most powerful organization in the world. When translating these words as words of timelessness they took their contorl beyond the limits of life to insure that all feared and submitted to these leaders in order to have the covering and blessings of the priest since all believed the preists to have direct contact with God and this was taught to all those who believed in God. This is why we now have the bible in english because it was only the preists who would read from the scriptures during mass and if you desired to know anything you would have to ask the leaders and priests for an answer. Those dark days are over but the damage had been done and our translations have undergone numerous revisions in order to undo the errors that were made. There have been approximately 50,000 errors corrected in the King James bible since 1611. Although there have been many changes there are many that have been unchanged since the theology has been established by those errors. New translations and new bibles are translated from the original tonges BUT they are compared and REVISED against the Latin Vulgate which is where the errors originated.

In the story of the rich man who lifted up his eyes being in torment. He was told that there "is a great gulf fixed". That means to me that there was no way of escape.

I would like you to understand that this is a parable and this parable has nothing to do with heaven and hell. It is refering to Judah in particular and the gentiles. Judah was cut off from the promise and it was given to the gentiles. This is a short example and I could in no way explain this whole parable in detail in this post. Maybe we can start another thread dealing with this story alone as it is a huge study to gain perfect clarity.

Notice the rich man has 5 brothers? Does this speak anything to you? Notice the color of his clothing? Does this speak anything to you? Notice that He gives to the poor and loves God and keeps the Law etc, etc? I will givve you a small tat of understanding on this until a further time. Judah had 5 brothers from His mother and He had 6 step brothers from another women and all had the same father. Judah is the seedline which was a priesthood and David was from the tribe of Judah where he was King. This is the purpose for these details sauch as purple and sackcloth etc, etc.

Bottom line is generally speaking Isreal cannot cross this gulf until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. Christ and His elect are stumbling blocks to Isreal and this is why Lazarus also cannot cross the gulf. This is the plan and will of God at this time.

I would love to go into this further but time is not on our side.

If "eternal" and "everlasting" etc are for undetermined periods and the dead are in the spiritual realm where time does not exist then that to me means un-ending

These words "aion" and "aionios" are not undetermined periods of time but predetermined by God exactly how long each period is depending on how long God knows it will take to complete each purpose in its own time. God will continue untill all have been subdued. God uses different methods as outlined in scripture to bring about His plan and purpose. His plan, will and purpose is the slavation of all mankind as His family is an expanding family.

Why does He allow the vessils of wrath to continue in their wickedness? Why does He chose of His own will to make I or you a vessil of honor? Is it because we are somehow better in some way that the vessils of wrath? Of course not. It is buy His molding and raising and making us what He desires us to be. He is the potter and we are all the clay of the same lump.

Rom 9:15-23 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

Now here is the whole purpose for making, molding, the vessils into what they are.

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Again, if God makes us what we are than "why does He yet find fault?". Because He is God and it is all of His choosing but in the end He is a just God and He judges in righteousness. Inotherwords He will make right all that has been wrong. He will make straight all that has been made crooked. He will level all the hills and mountain (symbolically). All that the devil has done will be undone. As in Adam ALL die, EVEN SO, in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

My God of righteousness how just and true are His ways.

God Bless, Dave

[inquisitive]

What dangerous theology, but you know in the end, if something has been taught and preached incorrectly to another, and that leads the other astray, what would God say or do about that?

Only thing i will say is, those that have ears hear and those that have eyes see, and Lord protect those that are being drawn to You, from the wrong shepherds leading them astray.

[Absolute Truth]

Actually, no, I don't thoroughly read every word of the posts to which I reply (especially LONG posts), and I admit I often miss the point. However, one's point often gets lost in a multitude of words. I like posts that are short and to the point.

I was replying to the statement that the lake of fire isn't eternal when it is. I don't remember saying that hell and death will be tormented--just that they will be cast in the lake of fire as stated in Revelation. If I missed whatever other point that was hiding in there I apologize. I see something that catches my eye, and I pounce on it. You can, of course, ignore anything I write since I generally don't know what I'm talking about according to some people.

There is absolutely nothing short of a 50 page essay in order to prove what I am stating in accord with scripture regarding the turhth of hell and eternal torment. I have given only a fraction of the scripture which supports my claims and as I feel this should at least cause you and others to consider the fact that there is something wrong with the Christian theology of today and the last 1899 years. Since then the theology has grown more and more in error.

Yes ths is Gods will that this be since He does not in this time desire all to walk in Christ. God does not give Christ all mankind at once and certainly not in this life (age or dispensation). Why? Read my last post and look at the passages of scripture I gave from Rom9:15-23.

It is the will of God that not all recieve it in this time in order for God to make His power and godhead known to all. He has elected vessils of honor in order to make know the riches of His glory. It is through His elect that He makes known His love and mercy and grace. The vessils of wrath are used to display His judgment, anger, and vengence.

In this we are given the whole meaning of life wrapped up in a couple of words. God desires that we (all mankind) know Him as God and Father, the almighty, all powerful, all knowing, all consumming, all loving, all full of grace, all mercyfull, etc, etc, etc. This is the purpose for all these things in life. It is why God allowed evil to enter the Garden and cause Adam and Eve to fall. Notice "Let us make man in OUR IMAGE". He set a tree in the garden which contained not only knowledge of evil but knowledge of GOOD. In order for us to have knowledge of good we had to partake of the knowledge of evil in order for contrast to reveal and make known these things. Notice that the knowledge of good and evil was contained in the same tree from the same root which the Lord God had made and designed.

If we are to be sons and daughter of God than we must first have a knowledge of these things. There had to be a law in the first place in order for Adam and Eve to break it to gain that understanding. God made one law and that was "thou shal;t not eat of it". God knew they would and this is how he permitted it and why He permitted it. They had to break a law, any law, so God made a law knowing full well that their flesh was weak and they would fail and gain the knowledge of good and evil. Then God moved to the next step in His plan. If you think that the vessils of wrath are doing other than what God is permissively willing that they do for a devine purpoe then that is an error. God is in complete control. It is the Lords will that the vessils of wrath continue until He is ready to make it right and make them whole also. This will not be done until God has completed the task of making known all characterisitcs of Himself that we may know Him as God and as our Father.

All mankind are His workmanship as I have shown in scripture. He is the potter and we are the clay of the exact same lump not differing from one another one iota with the exception of Gods choosing what He will make into a vessil of honor and a vessil of wrath. It is not of him who runs or wills to direct his own steps but it is all of God and His choosing.

Please, if there is one thing that will cause Christ to say to you "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you" It is because we do not know Him and we have been adopting doctrines of devils that cause us to view a different Jesus, another messiah that does not have the power and the authority over death to save all whom he came to save. Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL man unto me". Well, He was lifted up and now we must wait to be drawn to Him. The elect now in the life and those who are corrected and purified through the lake of fire.

I hope by now some light may be shining in your eyes.

God Bless, dave

[inquisitive]

The Holy Spirit confirms in way less than 50 pages

[Absolute Truth]

What dangerous theology, but you know in the end, if something has been taught and preached incorrectly to another, and that leads the other astray, what would God say or do about that?

Only thing i will say is, those that have ears hear and those that have eyes see, and Lord protect those that are being drawn to You, from the wrong shepherds leading them astray.

I find it extremely difficult to understand how you have judged me so rash without one shred of a refutation using scripture.

You cannot gainsay one point of what I have spoken and you cannot find one place where I have contradicted myself yet you have judged me as teaching a dangerous theology and that I have gone astray and am leading some astray and that indirectly you are stating that I do not have ears to hear and I do not have eyes to see. You have label (judged) me as a wrong sheppard.

You are claiming that all I have and all I teach does not come from god so if it does not come from God as you state then in essence what you are stating is that it comes from Satan (Or beelsabub as the Pharasees charged).

All of this without directing anyone or myself to scripture to prove where my error lies. I believe, these are very dangerous accusations without having the eyes and ears you claim I do not have which should give you the ability and wisdom to look to the scriptures and absolutely prove that your oppinions of me are correct before you throw your labels and judgement on me.

If Satan be divided against Satan how can his kingdom stand? I believe on the Lord Jesus and I believe that He is the Son of the livign God and that He rose from the dead and was seen by many and that He ascended to the right hand of God in Glory. The only difference in my theology from yours is that I believe according to scripture that th lake of fire is corrective and medicinal with a purpose for a limited duration while Christianity believes it is for eternity.

I do not believe man has a free will that can thwart the very purpose plan and soveriegn will of God by choosing of themselves to go against Him without it being His will for them to do in the first place.

I believe that Christ will be 100% victorious in completing His task of saving the world. While the doctrines of Christianity preach a Christ who is actually powerless to save all since Christianity believes that mankind has a will that is free to make uncaused (free, unrestricted) choices that are of nessessity more sovereign than the will and purpose of God by way of power.

I never judge one laden with sin because I know that they know not what they do and that this is their lot in life that they are vessils of wrath whon the Lord had made from the same lump that I myself is from. I know and have great peace in knowign that God will one day have them fully clothed in their right mind bowing before the feet of Jesus, prasing God for all He has done.

Anyways, I will not return the offence that you have placed on me as I understand that you know not what you do as you err not knowing the scriptures.

God Bless you, Dave