Hell is a turn off

[Faith]

Hell is the place people go to after death here. If you go there then there is no way back. The Lake of fire is the final judgement place for eternal torment.
In Revelation 20 we see that the world of the dead and hell give up their dead for judgement and are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Revelations 20:13-15.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We know God sent his Son to die and save us from such a place.
Why would he send Christ if the penalty did not have to be paid?

Love Faith.xx

Gary not had time to read all the thread. Is there three questions you would like me to reply to...

[Absolute Truth]

My question would be, what did Jesus die for?

He died for the sins of the world. If Jesus never came and did the work He did than there would be no resurrection of the dead and all would remain in their graves without any hope of living again since we were dead in our tresspasses.

I have heard this question so many times I am still boggled at why this question would ever arrise just because one claims that the scriptures teach the universal redemption of all mankind.

Jesus is the reason for all to be given life.

God bless, Dave

[Absolute Truth]

Hell is the place people go to after death here. If you go there then there is no way back. The Lake of fire is the final judgement place for eternal torment.
In Revelation 20 we see that the world of the dead and hell give up their dead for judgement and are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Revelations 20:13-15.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We know God sent his Son to die and save us from such a place.
Why would he send Christ if the penalty did not have to be paid?

Love Faith.xx

Gary not had time to read all the thread. Is there three questions you would like me to reply to...

Hi Faith,

Jesus did not die to save us from a hell fire of eternal torment. He gave His life as a payment for the sins of the world that they may be resurrected from the dead both spiritual and literal. His life is the example of what we are to become in addition to our resurrection.

Jesus is the savior of the world because he has saved the world from death and the grave. We were dead in our sins and now we will have life but those sins and the nature that causes us to sin must be destroyed and devoured up in order for all to walk in that newness of life that Christ God demands we walk in.

It is all of God and not of ourselves lest any man should boast. Jesus redeemed all to him already but not all are presently walking in it. This is the purpose for judgment and punishment. We are accountable for our actions but God takes the responsility on Himself to cleans us and make us whole through judgment. It is all done of Christ and through Christ and to Christ. This is the way of God.

God Bless, Dave

[smellycat]

from death to life.Jesus is the truth and light.he died to save many.

[gibby]

Well, AT. If what you are saying is true, then I can abandon this whole Christianity thing and live life the way I see fit. No big deal if no one has to worry about spending eternity in Hell.

So many take the Word of God and skillfully twist and pervert it to create their own "theology" and make up their own idea of what God should be...then try to put an invincible wall up around their ideas by saying God "revealed" it to them. Very bad plan, IMO. I am going to stick to what the bible says, not what I want it to say.

John 3:36
1 John 5:12
Romans 6:23
Revelation 20:11-15


And....

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 How anyone can mis-interpret a scripture so straightforward about hell is, in essence, plugging their ears and shouting, "LA LA LA LA, Can't hear you, can't hear you!"

Well, I am not getting on that boat you are on, AT, because it is heading straight for the waterfall.

[inquisitive]

My question would be, what did Jesus die for?

I have heard this question so many times I am still boggled at why this question would ever arrise just because one claims that the scriptures teach the universal redemption of all mankind.

Why? It is a natural question to ask someone who 'claims that the scriptures teach the universal redemption of all mankind'

[Absolute Truth]

Well, AT. If what you are saying is true, then I can abandon this whole Christianity thing and live life the way I see fit. No big deal if no one has to worry about spending eternity in Hell.

Hi gibby,

I know you are typing this as sarcasm so I cannot be too hard on you for it. Yousee, the heart and mind of one who would "genuinly" ask such a thing is already carnal and has no desire to do the will of God out of a pure heart and conscience. They serve God and follow Him out of fear of what might happen to them if they dont. In essence it is out of fear and selfishness that one would serve God in this frame of mind.

Let me reveal something to you concerning this mentallity. I believe in the universal redemption of all mankind but I still serve god, infact I serve Him now more than I ever had when I was a believer in eternal torment. I serve Him and desire more of Him now because I see His love like never before and I desire to know this God and strive to please Him with what little might I may have. I do it out of love and love alone for Him. I strive to do His will and be a good in order to be a good witness and build a testimony that I need not be ashamed of in order to bring glory to God through everything I say and do.

Done get me wrong though, although the Lake of fire is not eternal does not weaken its affectiveness. Infact, It is a concentrated judgment where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. I do not see how this is a weak punishment or correction that would entail miriads of people to desire it since it is not eternal. Please understand that I do not assume your have this heart as I have already noted that you stated it in sarcasm rather than your true feelings. I just wanted you to see the wicked heart and mind behind such a quest.

So many take the Word of God and skillfully twist and pervert it to create their own "theology" and make up their own idea of what God should be...then try to put an invincible wall up around their ideas by saying God "revealed" it to them. Very bad plan, IMO. I am going to stick to what the bible says, not what I want it to say.

I do not seek to twist scripture, I am attempting to untwist it in order that maybe God has some chosen here that may have their eyes opwen to the truth. Furhtermore, it is not my plan but Gods. I am used to my writing getting mostly ignored and only a few things addressed where the reader assumes it is an easy correction on their part to question me on it. I dont mind that poeple question the faith I have according to scripture but what does cause frustration is when the answer is given in the post they are questioning. This proves that the most was not truly read or examined and the reader was simply reading and seeking for small nuggets he/she believes they can counter claim on. This is horrible scholarship and is further proof that God does not desire all to understand in this life. It is a blatent denial of the scriptures in favor of indoctrinated traditions of men. This again is not what I want to say.
I have never been one to follow any wind of doctrine just because it has a good smell. If you seriously knew me this would be the last thing you would ever accuse me of. I am extremely zealous for truth and truth only. If it does not line up with the whole of scripture I cast it away. I do however give eye and ear to all I study and read and compare it with "the whole of scripture" and and I am not rash to do this and never have been.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting (Grk aionios life): and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Notice that those who believe have aionios life but those that do not have not life. You see, aionios is not correctly defined as everlasting. If it was then how come the word is not used to describe those who do not have life? My point, you will never read that anyone recieves aionios death because there is no such thing. The word aionios is a reference to being of a particular age since it is an adjective and not a noun. This particular age is the "kingdom age". The same kingdom that Christ puts down all rule and authority in and delivers up the kingdom to God the Father so God may be all in all.

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Let me ask you now. DO you have life now that you are a believer in Christ? Of course you will say yes. Now those who do not believe in Jesus have not life. Remeber Jesus saying "let the dead bury the dead"? They are already in death even though they live and breath. Life and death in scripture is refering to the state of a mans spiritual walk not his literal physical existance. The life of the kingdom is in those now who walk after the spirit while those who have not the spirit are already spiritually dead. They need that spiritual resurrection that those who believe have recieved. We are resurrected by Christ spiritually now. Those who are not of the spirit will be resurrected in the end of the kingdom age through the lake of fire.Jesus told us to judge ourselves so that we will not be judged. Judgement must first begin with the house of God and that is happening right now in the elect. If we do not judge ourselves than we shall be judged.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice again that the wages of sin is death (not aionios death) and the gift of God is aionios life. We are walking in the aionios life now but those who do not believe are walking in death. They are now spiritually dead while we are spiritualy alive in Christ.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Please notice that this is the SECOND DEATH as they have already physically died. Now, Also notice, that these are judged according to their works right??? Please remember this point as I continue.
1Co 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Revelation 20 11-15 and 1Cor 3 11-15 are witnesses to each other and aid in understanding of both. Comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual with spiritual will always shine light on the truth and this is what we just did here.

Notice that just as revelation claims that they will be judged according to their works (of what sort it is), if their works (meaning no good works to remain) are burned they will suffer loss but the man himself shall be save yet so as by fire.

Another witness to this as their must be two to every truth is the demon possessed man who was laden with iniquity and possessed by legions of devils was wicked and evil and full of evil yet Christ cast out and caused to perish and destroyed that which was in the man that put him in this condition and the man himself was at the feet of Jesus fully clothed and in his right mind praising God. What happened to that which was tormenting this man? It was destroyed where? Of course IN A LAKE. This is a parable in nature and an act of God to give clarity regarding the power of God and will of God to make right that which has been so wrong. There is a purpose to judgement. It is not simply torturing and tormenting endlessly with no point or purpose. There is a purpose for all that God does. He IS LOVE not merely capable of loving. All that He does is in love and do claim anything less is to deny God. [QUOTE]And....

2Th 1:5-10 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice that it is a RIGHTEOUS judgment of God. Understanding what righteousness is, it is to make right. To make good that which is wrong. It is not to torment and forsake forever as Christian theology teaches.

They shall be punished with "aionios" destruction from the very present of the Lord, not from a speration from the Lord. It is in His presence that the evil within them is purge by His consuming fire. The glory of His presence is the cause of the trouble and tribulation they experience because evil cannot exist in the sight or presence of the Lord (take note of the demon possesed man, " Hath thou come to torment US BEFORE OUR TIME?). Now concerning the punishment of everlasting (aionios) destruction, this all takes place in the end of the kingdom age. When this aionios destruction is complete those who have experienced it will be made whole as the demon possessed man was. All that that has defiled him will have been excersised or burned away leaving the man himself as I have noted above. It is a time or age that this will continue, not forever and ever. The scriptures are viod of anything dealing with eternity. The furthest thing in scripture that we know of is when God becomes all in all. At that point there is no more understanding other than speculation and ideas. God is dealing with mankind according to the ages and at a future point we will have the consumation of the ages and then we know not what shall be. We know that we will have immortality (deathlessness) but there is no mention of what shall be in eternity (timelessness) and for our translator to define these words as such was the biggest error in all of literature in all history.

How anyone can mis-interpret a scripture so straightforward about hell is, in essence, plugging their ears and shouting, "LA LA LA LA, Can't hear you, can't hear you!"

Well, I am not getting on that boat you are on, AT, because it is heading straight for the waterfall.

I pray you reexamine the theology to which you hold in light of what has been revealed here in this post. I have addressed every concern and every peice of scripture you have used as a rebuttle and have clearly shown how the whole word meshes together perfectly. Please don't let your pride stand in the way of taking hold of the greatest truths which are to follow in this life. I had to take a pride beating when God first lead me to the truth and I pray that you are not one to pay homage to your pride over the truth which God may be revealing to you here and possibly in years to come.

God Bless, Dave

[Jon-Marc]

If the lake of fire is not eternal, then what does Rev. 20:10 mean when it says that the beast and false prophet "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"? In verse 14 it says that death and hell will be cast there, and in verse 15 it says that "whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Remember in verse 10 it says that the lake of fire is forever.

[gibby]

AT, I apologize for the sarcasm. However, I feel we are 2 passing ships at sea on this topic. Universal salvation is a deception that you have allowed yourself to fall into, IMO. I don't think that God's Word requires a theology degree or loads of knowledge to interpret meanings of words. If it did, then we would all have to ditch our bibles and have to rely on those that do. Then we find ourselves listening to what man says, not God. Why would the Lord allow His word to be so flawed over time? I am sorry, but I don't buy it. When I read God's word, I read what it says. I don't take every word and try to find an alternative definition to support ideas that go against what His word clearly states.

1 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 1:8-10

[Absolute Truth]

If the lake of fire is not eternal, then what does Rev. 20:10 mean when it says that the beast and false prophet "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"? In verse 14 it says that death and hell will be cast there, and in verse 15 it says that "whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Remember in verse 10 it says that the lake of fire is forever.

Hi Jon-Marc,

In keeping with a thread it is important to thoroughly read the entire posts of each post before making a comment or rebuttle. I assume that you did not read my entire posts or my previous post since you did not see the answer in it that you ask above.

I dont mind at this point as it gives me a chance to elaborate more on the use of the words "eternal", "everlasting", and "for ever and ever", but first, I would like to make a note on your comment " it says that death and hell will be cast there, and in verse 15 it says that "whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

Death and hell (Grk: hades) are not entities but the state and condition of a person. As you should well know, death and hell will not and cannot be tormented day and night forever and ever since these are not people. As I noted, you did not read my post thoroughly and maybe merely skimmed over it seeking for an error that could pounce on so you missed the point I made about all that which defiles and limits a man from attaining to perfection in Christ will be destroyed, caused to parish, consummed away in this fire but the man himself shall be made alive. I have given you 3 scriptural witnessess to this which causes me to believe you either did not read this at all or you merely skimmed over it and missed it all together. There is no denying this truth as there is no evidence against it.

Now, looking at the erronious translation of the words "aion" and its adjective "aionios" as being defined as words of timelessness I will address this in the following.

A dictionary or lexicon is the not the most authoritative place to find the true definition of a word. Especially if the word in question makes or breaks a particular controversial doctrine, such as, is punishment of the wicked for a period of time that ends, or for eternity.

In many Bibles the Greek word: "aion" is translated as "forever," and "aionios" is translated, "everlasting," or "eternal."

Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end."

Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."

Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias?

Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK." Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"

Usage always defines a word and part of the big deception in eternal torment theology is that usage and rightly dividing scripture is ignored in place of modern dictionaries and Lexicons and exhaustive concordances. I am not saying that these things are useless but as we see if a certain definition makes or breaks a controversial doctrine than we must turn to word usage and comparing scripture with scripture in order to come to the true definition of a word.

Since most cling to bible translations and exhaustive concordances as if these are unadulterated and error free they are lead to merely speculate and guess at what the whole of scripture is speaking about, especially since there are so many controversial doctrines and denominations of the same faith. This alone proves that there is no genuine unity and none are of one accord in one spirit. Until Christians realize that their translated bibles and concordances are not error free they will continue in the same error and division.

I am not here to cause further division. I am here to shed light on those doctrines that are controversial and bring unity. God calls us to expose contradiction and that is all I am here for.

To further examine the words hades and gehenna is another point I will address but not in this post. I believe this will shed even more light on this whole subject.

Hades is not eternal since it itself is thrown into the lake of fire along with death. We are told they are swallowed up in victory. Let me ask you? How can people recieve death for eternity if death is swallowed up in victory and God makes a grand boast against death and the grave? "Oh death where is thy sting, oh grave, where is your victory?" If death is to reign forever by way of its eternal captives than death will always have a reply to God will it not????

Seriously, I ask you in the name of Jesus to please consider thoroughly examining my last post rather than skimming through it. Compare it and rightly divide it and then come to me with your concerns. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I make sure to thoroughly read and examine everyones posts and I read the passages they list for me to concider and reply to all of their queries and all I ask is that I am given the same respect. Please do not take this the wrong way and hold a grudge against me. I am sure you would agree that it makes discussion much easier rather than one or all continually having to repeat the same thing over and over carrying the discussion to oblivion with no return

Anyways I look forward to your reply and God bless, Dave