Anglo-Israelism

[flaja]

There are some people who believe that the British and American People make up 2 of the lost tribes of Israel while Western Europeans make up the remaining lost tribes. They make a distinction between the Jews (Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi) and the people that descended from the other Israelite tribes who were supposedly lost to history following their exile by Assyrians. My understanding is that the people who hold these beliefs either follow false doctrines and/or are racist, i.e., they believe that you have to be white in order to be a descendent of one of the non-Jewish Israelite tribes- despite the fact that Americans collectively trace their origins to practically every nationality/ethnic group in the world.

False doctrine and racism aside, if there are Israelites who are not Jews, how can the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel and the sealing of the 144,000 in Revelation be explained?

I do not necessarily believe Ango-Israelism, i.e., I do not believe that the modern day identify of any of the tribes that were exiled by the Assyrians is definitely known. The Bible suggests that some of the exiles from the Kingdom of Israel were assimilated with the Jews when the Jews were released from their Babylonian exile, but I am not convinced that all of the people from the Kingdom of Israel, who were exiled by the Assyrians, were assimilated with the Jewish tribes from the Southern Kingdom of Judah.

According to the Bible there is not one single nation of Israel or one single Israelite People.

God told Abraham in Genesis 12:2 that He would make Abraham a great nation. But in 17:4 God told Abraham that he would be the father of many nations, i.e., more that just the single nation of Israel. And you say this prophesy was fulfilled by the descendants of Ishmael because in 17:16 God promised that Sarah would be the mother of many nations. Since Isaac was Sarah's only child, the many nations had to come from him. Two nations came from Isaac (Genesis 25:23), and then in Genesis 35:11 God changed Jacob's name to Israel and promised that Israel would become a nation and a company of nations. So the modern state of Israel, is not the only Israelite nation and the Jews are not the only Israelite people.

[Onesiphorus]

Dear flaja , this is a crucial point you are making and I will be brief in my initial reply , there is no truth in the anglo /israeli theory and it can be proved wrong by scripture .which we can discuss at length if you so choose .

just a hint of where the confusion lies , all through the Ot and into the new testament , and I use that term only as the term for the man made division in the bible , God speaks of a remnant from out of His people and that remnant is present today and will be present throughout the time future up to reveation 22 , and has nothing to do with the church the body of Christ .

God has still not restored the earthly kingdom promised Abraham and David , and Hispeople Israel are Still lo ammi, and the holy nation of priests promised has not yet been fulfilled , so the" nation " promised the 12 tribes is not yet here .

As far as the 10 northern tribes it was never that straightforward for many of those in te north actually moved south to Judah and visa versa so it was never that clear a split as can be found in kings and chronicles and the books of history , so to say they actually disappeared is an error made and I think the chaps name was Herbert Armstrong , so if you want to know more about him Im sure google will help you

[flaja]

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

Dear flaja , this is a crucial point you are making and I will be brief in my initial reply , there is no truth in the anglo /israeli theory and it can be proved wrong by scripture .which we can discuss at length if you so choose .

Can you tell me how Scripture disproves Anglo-Israelism? Are you saying that the Bible shows that the Brits/Americans cannot be part of the Israelites, or are you saying that none of the Israelites were ever lost to history and all Israelites are now Jews?

If all Israelites are Jews, how do you explain:

Genesis 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

In this verse Israel is blessing his grandsons and transferring his name, Israel, onto them saying that their descendants would become a multitude on the earth. All of the Jews put together wouldn’t constitute a multitude of people, but Anglo-Americans would. English is the 1st or 2nd language of about a billion people, roughly 1/6 of the world’s present population.

Amos 9:8-9 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

If the House of Jacob means the sons of Joseph, then being sifted among all nations does not describe the Jews, but it could easily describe Americans.

And what about: Deuteronomy 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men.

When have the Jews ever been forgotten?

And Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

So God won’t always use the Hebrew language to speak to His People, but the Jews today still use Hebrew as their language of worship just as their Judean ancestors did.

[quote3]As far as the 10 northern tribes it was never that straightforward for many of those in te north actually moved south to Judah and visa versa so it was never that clear a split as can be found in kings and chronicles and the books of history ,[/quote]

You can document this?

[canny]

a question, just for my benefit to I can get a grip on some this ... can you define American for me please ?

[Onesiphorus]

one question flaja , do you believe in armstrongism

[flaja]

Originally Posted by canny

a question, just for my benefit to I can get a grip on some this ... can you define American for me please ?

Constitutionally speaking, anyone who is born or nationalized in the U.S. is an American citizen. But otherwise Americans don't have much in the way of a common culture, religion, history or anything else that usually defines a nationality. The best you can say about Americans is maybe that we have a common mindset, i.e., the American dream- providing you can define American dream.

[flaja]

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

one question flaja , do you believe in armstrongism

No. I reject him as I do any other bigot.

I am convinced that Jacob gave rise to multiple nations and the people from all of these Israelite nations have a role to play in God’s plan. However, I am not willing to say which modern nations (except the modern Jewish state of Israel) may or may not be Israelite.

[Onesiphorus]

Dear flaja , thanks for your forthright reply , I am never sure where to begin an exploration of the scriptures but before we cover the actual assyrian conquest of Israel i want to first look at Leviticus 26 as well as look at how Moses actually defines what he means by Gods people , so I am looking at the 5 courses of chastisement of Israel in leviticus26 together with exodus and also the verse in i think its numbers but I havent looked yet where God says that HIS PEOPLE WILL NOT BE RECKONED AMONG THE NATIONS numbers 23:9, which in itself shows that nations cannot be Israel but His people . So Ill be back

[flaja]

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

Dear flaja , thanks for your forthright reply , I am never sure where to begin an exploration of the scriptures but before we cover the actual assyrian conquest of Israel i want to first look at Leviticus 26 as well as look at how Moses actually defines what he means by Gods people , so I am looking at the 5 courses of chastisement of Israel in leviticus26 together with exodus and also the verse in i think its numbers but I havent looked yet where God says that HIS PEOPLE WILL NOT BE RECKONED AMONG THE NATIONS numbers 23:9, which in itself shows that nations cannot be Israel but His people . So Ill be back

Leviticus 26 is addressing the whole of Israel, i.e., all of the tribes that are descended from Jacob. Israel was still a single nation at this point.

And how do you explain the fact that God told Jacob/Israel that he (Jacob/Israel) would be the father of a nation and a company of nations (Genesis 35:11)? And how do you explain the fact that Jacob/Israel promised his grandsons through Joseph that they would become a great nation and a company of nations? The Bible clearly says that the descendents of Jacob/Israel would become more than one single nation.

[Onesiphorus]

It appears we already have an impasse , you seem to have decided that what the bible is referring to is that Israel has been dissipated to form a number of modern nations , that is not scriptural , Israel is made up of the 12 tribes descended from the 12 sons of Jacob which if you like formed the commonwealth of Gods people Israel , the hwbrew word for people is the same as the hebrew word for nations . You can virtually trace the history of Israel in the 5 courses of Chastisement in Leviticus 26 ,
.

One further point do you hold the opinion that the prophetic programme for the kingdom promised Abraham has been fulfilled , because this too would have a bearing on further postings because in Exodus 19
:6 this prophecy has not come about and the true nation of Israel will be restored as promised .

A comment as well on the first verse of the book of James where he is writing to the 12 Tribes which are scattered abroad . so James certainly believed the 12 twelve tribes were still in existence ,
.
We are just entering the discussions but I just want a feel of what you are trying to prove as I am not entirely certain what tou intend your argument to be ,.....do you think that modern nations are made up of the so called lost tribes because if you do then I can say now that I disagree 100% with that theory and we can open up the scripyures to disprove it