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Reply With Quotewhen I say argument I use it as a term of discussion and not disagreement
Level 1 
Why are you assuming that I am here to have an argument? I asked honest questions based on what the Bible says about the history and destiny of the Israelites. I am asking for an open and honest discussion, not an argument.Originally Posted by onesiphorus
Lampstand Senior Member when I say argument I use it as a term of discussion and not disagreement
Lampstand Senior Member The 12 tribes formed the commonwealth of Israel even Paul mentions that in ephesians that is the promise made to them .But the Israel of today is not the kingdom promised Abraham and David
Level 1 God only made 1 promise to the Israelites?
Lampstand Senior Member You must enlarge on this
Level 1 Simply read the Book of Genesis and note anytime God promises something to Abraham, Sarah, Isaac or Jacob. Also note the prophecies that Jacob made about each of his sons.
Not every promise was directed at the Jews and the Israelites were not meant to be simply one single nation.
In Genesis 17:4 God promised Abraham: As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
The Arabs and the Jews don’t really constitute many nations in light of the number of nations that now exist or have existed cumulatively throughout history.
God promised in Genesis 17:16: And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Abraham fathered many children by several different women, but Sarah had only 1 child, Isaac, so Isaac has to be the founder of many nations in order for God’s promise to Sarah to be fulfilled. A single nation founded by Esau and another single nation founded by Jacob do not really make Sarah the mother of nations considering the number of nations that have existed throughout history.
God further clarified his promise to Abraham in Genesis 22:17: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
God made a similar promise to Isaac in Genesis 25:4, but if you took ever Jew that has ever lived the number wouldn’t come close to matching the number of stars in heaven or the number of sand grains on the seashore even in a figurative, let alone a literal, sense.
Furthermore, note the bit about Abraham’s descendants possessing the gates of their enemies. The Jews have never had more than a tenuous hold on the Straits of Tiran, which control their access to the Red Sea. But collectively the Brits and Americans have historically controlled the English Channel, the Straits of Dover, the Straights of Gibraltar, the Suez Canal, the Panama Canal, Malta, the Straits of Florida and the Straits of Hormuz.
In Genesis 35:11 God told Jacob/Israel: I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
So God plainly promised that the descendants of Jacob/Israel would become multiple nations. This promise could not be fulfilled by a single nation of Jews.
Just before Jacob/Israel died he called his sons to him in order to prophesy about what their destinies would be. But the prophecy for Joseph went to Joseph’s two sons. In Genesis 48:16 Jacob/Israel declared: The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
By transferring his name to his grandsons Jacob/Israel essentially adopted them thus making them equal to Joseph’s brothers. So any prophecy about Israel or the House of Israel likely pertains to Joseph’s sons and not to the Jews or any of the other Israelite tribes. But in this particular prophecy Jacob/Israel’s grandsons are meant to grow into a multitude of people. The Jews have never been a multitude of people in comparison to the populations of most non-Jewish peoples. The Jews have never been able to fulfill this prophecy.
Then in Genesis 48:19 Jacob/Israel seemed to get confused about which of his grandsons was the older, but he refused to heed Joseph’s correction: And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
So one of Joseph’s sons was to become a great nation while the other was to become a multitude of nations. Again, this prophesy pertains to certain, but not all, Israelite tribes. The Jewish nation is a fact of history that can be verified with ample written records. But, the Jewish nation is not the only Israelite nation. I am not prepared to say which modern countries are non-Jewish Israelite nations, but I accept that the Bible clearly says that such countries do exist.
Lampstand Senior Member so when you said you do not believe in Armstrongism you do believe that some modern nations are tribes, or belong to the Israel bloodline ..a rose by any other name , I am sorry but i do read genesis but not to fit error as you are doing
Israel whether it be Jaco/Israel or the 12 tribes are a holy people seperated from the nations not to be reckoned withthe nations , if you do not believe that and want it to fit some belief system other than scriptural then I see no point in me continuing with this repetative posting
Level 1 I don’t believe in Armstrongism because Armstrong is a racist. The Bible clearly says that the Israelites will be multiple nations. But there is not enough historical evidence for anyone to say which modern nations represent the Israelites and I utterly reject the idea that a modern nation has to be of a certain race in order to be Israelite.
Then explain the prophecies found in Genesis that say the Israelites will be multiple nations.Israel whether it be Jaco/Israel or the 12 tribes are a holy people seperated from the nations not to be reckoned withthe nations
Lampstand Senior Member Your statement on rejecting the fact that Israel or rather the 12 tribes of Jacob are The chosen people of God really is an irrelevance , as that is not what the scriptures say , we as Christians have tried for 2000tears to make the bible fit our prejudices and false doctrines and that is why there is so much confusion in Christendom ..very few actually believe the Word of God as is says it where it says it and to whom it says it to
So to conyinue I refer to Deuteronomy
Chapter4:27..
Lord scatters His people Israel amongst the nations (prophetic) and ye shall be few in number amongst them
DEuteronomy4:31 The Lord will not forsake them
Deuteronimy28:64 from one end of the earth to the other
28:65 and you Israel) shall find no ease
nehemiah1:8/9
Micah:52/3
Isaiah11:11/12
Jeremiah32:37
Ezekiel36:19
Ezekiel39:27-29
Isaiah8:14/15 mentions both houses of Israel
Jeremiah23:3
That shoul be enough to be getting on with for now
You are trying to fit scripture and history into your assumptions , im afraid you are wasting your time , you will be able to cherry pick the odd verse or chapter and you could use that but in context to the whole word if you add or take away from the truth it will not work
Level 5 Can I ask that we all remember that the promise to Abraham was not the promise to Israel. Abraham is the father of many nations which includes Israel but many nations are descended from Abraham which have nothing to do with Israel
If we disagree , at least one of us is wrong!
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