First Graders Take a Trip to a Gay Wedding

[Sine_Deus]

^But that is a Christian belief, it's not a fact. And when you are a child, IMO, you are an agnostic because you are unable to come to a reasoned decision about what your beliefs are. We wouldn't expect a child to vote, so why would we expect a child to choose a religious faith?

The immorality of homosexual acts cannot be argued through reason, to my knowledge, and so children should not be taught it is a sin, unless they become Christians as adults. Of course, I know plenty of Christians who still say homosexuality isn't a sin because they interprate the scriptures more liberally.

About homosexuality being 'unnatural', I'm not really convinced by that. I mean, a lot of things modern humans do today are unnatural - watch films, play video games etc. In what specific way is it 'unnatural' that makes it unnacceptable?


I guess my point is that believing homosexuality is wrong is only a viewpoint and not a fact. Therefore children should be told 'Some people believe homosexuality is sinful, whereas others disagree. With time you can form your own opinions on the matter.'


A final point I want to raise is that the vast majority of homosexuals say they did not choose to have homosexual feelings. So presumably God gave them those feelings. Did he do that as a sort of test? Or maybe he is tolerant of homosexuality.

[gibby]

^But that is a Christian belief, it's not a fact.

When you are a Christian, you believe the bible as Absolute Truth and a fact. You have to remember that is where we come from. So, we disagree on this point. I understand that people who reject God's Word don't understand this and I know where they are coming from (I used to be in this camp). 1 Corinthians 1:18

The immorality of homosexual acts cannot be argued through reason, to my knowledge, and so children should not be taught it is a sin, unless they become Christians as adults.

Unless you are a Christian parent (like me) and you want to build the foundation of Truth in your children's lives.

Of course, I know plenty of Christians who still say homosexuality isn't a sin because they interprate the scriptures more liberally.

The bible is very clear about homosexuality so these Christians either don't know what the bible says or they are practicing "Buffet Christianity" by picking and choosing what they want to believe.

About homosexuality being 'unnatural', I'm not really convinced by that. I mean, a lot of things modern humans do today are unnatural - watch films, play video games etc. In what specific way is it 'unnatural' that makes it unnacceptable?

It involves sexual relations which is giving yourself spirtually to another person and God's plan reserves that to the marriage of a man and a woman.

I guess my point is that believing homosexuality is wrong is only a viewpoint and not a fact. Therefore children should be told 'Some people believe homosexuality is sinful, whereas others disagree. With time you can form your own opinions on the matter.'

Once again, this is if you choose to believe in God's word as true, or to reject it. The choice is freely yours to make. Joshua 24:15, John 3:36

A final point I want to raise is that the vast majority of homosexuals say they did not choose to have homosexual feelings. So presumably God gave them those feelings. Did he do that as a sort of test? Or maybe he is tolerant of homosexuality.

This goes back to the seed of Adam after the fall. We are not what we were meant to be due to the sin of Adam. The only way we can be restored to our original purpose is by accepting Christ as our saviour.

This logic would be like me saying I did not choose to lust after another woman who is not my wife. But because I "feel" like being a womanizer, it must be ok. No, it's the decietfullness of the flesh. Romans 7:11-25

[canny]

I dun see anything wrong with having the feelings, we all have feelings we sometimes shouldn't have..... what is wrong with abstinence.

[gibby]

Right, canny. It's when we submit to those feelings is when we sin and get hurt.

[Sine_Deus]

When you are a Christian, you believe the bible as Absolute Truth and a fact. You have to remember that is where we come from. So, we disagree on this point. I understand that people who reject God's Word don't understand this and I know where they are coming from (I used to be in this camp). 1 Corinthians 1:18

But perhaps you can appreciate how to others it is not fact?

Which brings me onto how you can define something as fact or not. The standard definition of fact is something having an objective reality that can be verified empirically. Surely you can acknowledge that your views cannot be verified empirically, and that they are instead founded on belief. I can imagine a come back to this that goes down some tricky philosophical ideas.

Unless you are a Christian parent (like me) and you want to build the foundation of Truth in your children's lives.

I think it's fair to say 'As a Christian, it is my belief that homosexuality is sinful.' But I think it is unfair to state outright that homosexuality is a sin without revealing that that is your belief and not a fact in the traditional sense of the meaning. Because although it is stated in the Bible, you are believing that the Bible is the perfect word of God.

The bible is very clear about homosexuality so these Christians either don't know what the bible says or they are practicing "Buffet Christianity" by picking and choosing what they want to believe.

The argument these Christians will often give is this: The Bible was written by men but inspired by God. Since it is inspired by God, it is a very important text to us, but since it was written by men it is not perfect. Therefore the main concepts in Christianity remain true, but the statements thats appear to be influenced by the beliefs of the writers as they lived in social circumstances of long ago are not the perfect word of God.

It involves sexual relations which is giving yourself spirtually to another person and God's plan reserves that to the marriage of a man and a woman.

Good answer. Could I have a quote of proof please.

This goes back to the seed of Adam after the fall. We are not what we were meant to be due to the sin of Adam. The only way we can be restored to our original purpose is by accepting Christ as our saviour.

This logic would be like me saying I did not choose to lust after another woman who is not my wife. But because I "feel" like being a womanizer, it must be ok. No, it's the decietfullness of the flesh. Romans 7:11-25

Good analogy. Although it seems unfair that homosexuals have no chance to receive sexual pleasure without being sinful. I guess inequality upsets me - I find it hard to imagine a God creating a world where some are able to enjoy themselves sexually whereas others are not.

And on sex outside marriage - it's quite difficult for an atheist such as myself to understand what is wrong about it, although adultery is much easier to comprehend.

[canny]

Good analogy. Although it seems unfair that homosexuals have no chance to receive sexual pleasure without being sinful.

It probably feels unfair, to all those in a loveless marriage, singles, divorcees, widows, teenagers (who have far more hormones than is fair ) but its how it is. Who said its only homosexuals who cant get their oats.

[Bloodbought]

Homosexuality is not consider wrong by just christians. It is called Sodomy for a very good reason. Read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis ch 18 & 19.

It is against creation and against God.

[Sine_Deus]

It probably feels unfair, to all those in a loveless marriage, singles, divorcees, widows, teenagers (who have far more hormones than is fair ) but its how it is. Who said its only homosexuals who cant get their oats.

Very true. And I'm fine with Christians saying they believe homesexual actions are sinful as I'm for free speech. So long as you don't impose your views on others in the sense that you actively prevent gay relationships and such. With the matter of children though, you've got to be more careful when exercising free speech. It would surely be wrong for me to teach a child that Christianity is sinful, even if that were my own personal belief. Or would it?

I tried reading the Genesis 18, although I didn't really follow it...

And yeah, homosexuality is considered wrong in many religions. But being Godless, I'm totally fine with it. It's amazing how religion can change completely one's world view. We bring across our points from completely different angles.


EDIT: Woah! That link thing is so cool!

[gibby]

But perhaps you can appreciate how to others it is not fact?

Which brings me onto how you can define something as fact or not. The standard definition of fact is something having an objective reality that can be verified empirically. Surely you can acknowledge that your views cannot be verified empirically, and that they are instead founded on belief. I can imagine a come back to this that goes down some tricky philosophical ideas.

When you place all your hope and trust in a book that is supported with archeological evidence, historical evidence, and prophetic fullfillment, you can declare with confidence, as a Christian, it is a fact.

Side note: Did you know that the Old Testament contains over 300 prophecies concerning the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ?

Consider Isaiah 53 which was written some 700 years before Christ.

I think it's fair to say 'As a Christian, it is my belief that homosexuality is sinful.' But I think it is unfair to state outright that homosexuality is a sin without revealing that that is your belief and not a fact in the traditional sense of the meaning. Because although it is stated in the Bible, you are believing that the Bible is the perfect word of God.

I would buy that if you were to state, "in a 'secular' and 'un-biblical' sense of the meaning."

The argument these Christians will often give is this: The Bible was written by men but inspired by God. Since it is inspired by God, it is a very important text to us, but since it was written by men it is not perfect. Therefore the main concepts in Christianity remain true, but the statements thats appear to be influenced by the beliefs of the writers as they lived in social circumstances of long ago are not the perfect word of God.

Well, the belief of the Bible being God's complete and inspired word springs up from the foundation that we believe there is a God and active in our world today and had inspired every word with the Holy Spirit. 2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 4:12

Napolean Bonaparte learned the hard way of this and inspired this quote:
“The Bible is no mere book, but a Living Creature, with a power that conquers all that oppose it.”


Putting limits on the bible because of it's percieved antiquity is to put God in a box. God exists beyond time. John 8:58

Good answer. Could I have a quote of proof please.

Scripture?

I find it hard to imagine a God creating a world where some are able to enjoy themselves sexually whereas others are not.

I understand why you think this. Ephesians 4:18, Obadiah 1:3 Until the Holy Spirit opens your eyes, you can't see clearly. 1 Corinthians 1:18

That is why we are on a mission to tell others about the Good News. Some will accept it, others won't. We just plant the seeds and pray God will make them grow.

[gibby]

I tried reading the Genesis 18, although I didn't really follow it...

There should be a drop down box to switch versions. Try the NIV or NKJV if KJV is a bit hard to swallow.