In inherently evil ?

[Lily]

Something I was listening to on radio 4 this morning, started me thinking.

I was listening to an account of how one of the boys ( I am not naming him ), who murdered James Bulger, aged 2, has been conducting himself since leaving prison. All under the so called supervision of probation workers I might add.

At the time of his arrest and trial, court transcripts were leaked about this boy and those testamonies, on oath, were confirmed by people who knew him, neighbours and even a few members of his family.
They confirmed that this boy, from a very, very early age would do things so shocking, things that just didn't equate with the image of a young child.
At 10yrs old, we all know what he, with another boy, did. If you don't know, I am not going to go through it, just google it.

Now aged 27, he is back behind bars. Privately, sources have described the reason for his recall as 'shocking' and speculation is ( I repeat speculation ), that it is a very serious, shocking crime against another child.

With this persons history from a very early age ( as young as 2yrs old ), a question sprang to mind.

" Are some people born inherently evil ? "

Some people say that all humans are born with no concept of good or evil. The "blank slate" theory. That whether one becomes evil depends on nurture, not nature.
But does it " really " depend on nuture ? Especially when we consider those thousands upon thousands of people in the world ( I'm sure we all know one of them ), who have suffered abuse, neglect and unimaginable cruelty, yet have made something good of their lives instead of becoming a person who has unleashed abuse, neglect and cruelty on others.

I heard one Minister once, say that " hurting people hurt others ". That maybe true of many, but as a blanket statement ?

So, nurture.
Humour me for a moment and lets consider that that blank slate theory has some substance, that no-one is born evil, they become evil because of nurture.
Then consider the case of Gary Gilmore chronicled by Norman Mailer in his 1979 book The Executioner's Song.

Gilmore, the American murderer who killed a hotel clerk in Utah, then killed a student the following night, and was fatally shot himself a year later by a firing squad.
He had a Brother called Frank.
Their mother, Bessie, was perplexed, she had raised them the same way. Frank, his Brother, turned out to be as peaceable and inoffensive as Gilmore was violent and destructive.
She was quoted as saying, " One Son picked up the gun, the other did not ".
Why ? Why if, this blank slate theory is true and people are made evil by nurture, should two Brothers turn out so different ?

I know of a family of nine children ( they are adults now ), who were all brought up the same. Eight of them are decent, good, law abiding people. One is a convicted child abuser.
Why ? I ask again, if this blank slate theory is true and people are made evil by nurture, did eight of those children grow up decent and good and one ends up in prison for a crime so evil, those of us who are moral, just don't understand how anyone could do such a thing ?

Now whether these children that turn out opposites, have been brought up in a caring, loving enviroment or an abusive, cruel enviroment, isn't my point. The all important words I use are, " the same ". So, loving or abusive enviroment, if both children have been raised in that same enviroment, I think we can all agree, comes under the heading of " the same ".

Take the example of Jeffrey Dahmer, who, in Milwaukee strangled and dismembered 17 men between 1978 and 1991. Much was made of his upbringing by a self- obsessed mother and largely absent father.
He inherited their lack of human warmth and inability to empathise and see the world through eyes other than their own. He was discribed as being " dangerously disconnected from humankind ".
But he, too, had a brother, David, brought up in that same enviroment, who never did anyone any harm and who now lives quietly under another name. David had the same parents, the same start in life, the same wretched upbringing and carried the same boatload of genes and DNA as his brother. So again, why ? Why if this blank slate theory is true, did two Brothers brought up " the same ", turn out so poles apart ?


That then, started me thinking about genetics, " something " passed on like a predisposed trait, so I looked a few things up. But there again, if two children come from the same Parents and one picks up a gun and the other doesn't, are genetics really the contributing factor ?

Nonetheless, if one child inherits an aggressive gene, he might turn that around into ambition and enterprise, leadership, artistic creation, love, self-fulfilment, all beneficial in outcome.
On the other hand, a sibling, with the same genetic disposition to aggression might become a hooligan.
It has been said that Beethoven, was remote, sullen, morose, superior and could very possibly become a dangerous psychopath if he hadn't channelled those traits toward writing music. What is it they say about there being a very fine line between genius and madness ? Is there that same thin line between turning out good or evil ?

So, evil. Are some people born inherently evil ? Does nurture make them evil ? Do genetics make someone evil ?

[Lily]

Just seen the title of this thread. It's meant to just say " Inherently evil " not In inherently evil. Senior moment

[Chuckt]

I can only tell you what scripture says.

The Bible teaches levels of responsibility:

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

You might want to ask how much is required of babies or children.

There are also examples of God witholding judgment from people who don't know the difference between right and wrong:

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and [also] much cattle?

And then there is the story of Nebuchadnezzar and other people whom God turned over to a lie.

Man knows good from evil:

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man is without Excuse:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

The law is spiritual so without the spirit, some people don't know they are doing wrong:

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

To sum up your questions I think you are asking:

Some people say that all humans are born with no concept of good or evil. The "blank slate" theory. That whether one becomes evil depends on nurture, not nature.

Humour me for a moment and lets consider that that blank slate theory has some substance, that no-one is born evil, they become evil because of nurture.

She was quoted as saying, " One Son picked up the gun, the other did not ".
Why ? Why if, this blank slate theory is true and people are made evil by nurture, should two Brothers turn out so different ?

So, evil. Are some people born inherently evil ? Does nurture make them evil ? Do genetics make someone evil ?

Are some of these arguments environment verses heredity? Like "Trading places"?

People given to a gene say "I was born that way" so can we get mad at the alcoholic who drives drunk, runs over children and says you can't get mad because "I was born that way"?

[Lily]

People given to a gene say "I was born that way" so can we get mad at the alcoholic who drives drunk, runs over children and says you can't get mad because "I was born that way"?

Yes, see you're point Chuck and many, many times that old chestnut gets rather tiresome, but do you think there is sometimes a case for maybe, a predisposed trait or gene ?

[Chuckt]

I had a friend who was doing some off the wall stuff and I asked a relative who happens to be a psychologist why people do crazy stuff. I don't believe in psychology but she said "there is no why".

James 4:1 ¶ From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members?
James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume [it] upon your lusts.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh (energizes) in the children of disobedience:

I was dwelling on sin and this person's sin. I found myself daydreaming on it and I had to stop to break out of the day dream because I felt the energy that pulls people in. Our hearts are inheritly wicked and the unregenerate go by feeling which is why we have to guard our hearts and invite God to come in and set up shop.

Matthew 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

[Chuckt]

Yes, see you're point Chuck and many, many times that old chestnut gets rather tiresome, but do you think there is sometimes a case for maybe, a predisposed trait or gene ?

It is a good question. If we knew one day our predisposed trait or gene would let us commit one sin that would kill us today would we do it or would we find the strength to stop?

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak.

[Lily]

I just find this so interesting.

Nonetheless, if one child inherits an aggressive gene, he might turn that around into ambition and enterprise, leadership, artistic creation, love, self-fulfilment, all beneficial in outcome.
On the other hand, a sibling, with the same genetic disposition to aggression might become a hooligan.
It has been said that Beethoven, was remote, sullen, morose, superior and could very possibly become a dangerous psychopath if he hadn't channelled those traits toward writing music. What is it they say about there being a very fine line between genius and madness ? Is there that same thin line between turning out good or evil ?

turning something that " could " be inherently violent and destructive into something good. Nonetheless, I do find it interesting to know how that happens without it being a conscious thought.
Ever see sportsmen behaving badly Chuck ? I mean sportsmen with, not just a talent for what they do, but a gift. I very often wonder if, you take away that nature, do you take away the gift.

[Chuckt]

I just find this so interesting.



turning something that " could " be inherently violent and destructive into something good. Nonetheless, I do find it interesting to know how that happens without it being a conscious thought.
Ever see sportsmen behaving badly Chuck ? I mean sportsmen with, not just a talent for what they do, but a gift. I very often wonder if, you take away that nature, do you take away the gift.

We all resort to our screensaver when we aren't focused on God:

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

There is a verse that Paul uses and when translated back into Greek it says we were just weathervaning or meandering to the course of this life and it is the ergon (energy) of Satan that energizes or works in the children of disobedience. Is it that energy that gives people a gift to become sport stars?

I think we can say no to sin because the spirit is willing:

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.

[smellycat]

i feel sorry for him,he needs Christ.
he is a very mixed up individual ,even as a child needing help.
i feel sorry for the people he affects .
and think he needs to be locked up unfortunately.
this is a spirit war.

[Lily]

Can't say I agree with you on the feeling sorry bit, I shall save my tears for what James Bulgers Mother is having to go through right now by reliving what happened.
I do agree he needs locking up though.