God's voice & the Spirit within me

[streetsinger]

Quote Jay Dub
I believe our names were written in the book because our Father knew us before the beginning of the world and saw us choose him. In this way God chose us and it was our own will to choose him

This is how I see it, both have to be true he chose us, but we needed to freely choose him[/QUOTE]

It’s an interesting course of reasoning Jay Dub and only God knows the true validity of it. It certainly placates the need of those of us who have a desire to maintain individuality. I did have a choice; live or die, but that has to be a choice with only one credible outcome which makes it no choice at all. Paul cried out ‘who will rescue me from this body of death, thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord’ If I’m drowning and someone throws me a lifebelt, do I have a choice whether or not to grab it? In essence I suppose I do, but in reality I don’t.

[Jay Dub]

If I’m drowning and someone throws me a life belt, do I have a choice whether or not to grab it? In essence I suppose I do, but in reality I don’t.

Streetsinger

What if every time we played in sin, we could see the flames of hell biting at our feet, would we continue in our sin? if pornography was something we spent time in, would we stay in it, if we saw the flames of hell at our feet? Wouldn't those bound in this sin, if they saw the flames of hell bitting at there feet reach for the life belt, Jesus if they saw this

Isn't that the same thing as I’m drowning and someone throws me a life belt, do I have a choice whether or not to grab it?

Why don't people grab a hold of Jesus? He is there life belt

or in the days of Noah why did they not grab hold of the life belt, The arch. It was there for all. Noah said come, but they chose to live in sin and die.

So to answer your question. No it is a choice, whether to live or die in our sin

Streetsinger, you being on the street witnessing to those in need, how many said to you no to that life belt ,that is Jesus Christ. Did they grab hold? How many chose to stay in there sin?

It certainly placates the need of those of us who have a desire to maintain individuality.

To me it is not about individuality, it is about choice I chose to go to my Father. Like the protocol son, I wanted to leave my life of sin and ran to my Father.

Maybe, the waters are sin and the life belt is Jesus and we are happy in the water swimming around not worried about the dangers, because we could easily swim to shore, but life's troubles and winds and waves makes the shore a hard place to get to, so then we reach for the life belt that is Jesus. This is why sometimes life gets hard, so we take our eyes off of ourselves and put them on Jesus

Streetsinger
I am not saying I am right you are wrong. I am only saying I believe God has given me the opportunity to freely choose Jesus as my savior, not because he made me choose him, but because of his love for us he said the choice is yours believe in the Son and live or swim in your sin

[Bloodbought]

My thoughts on this are that God knew us from before the foundations of the world. he knew that we would chose Him (by his Foreknowledge) and so He chose us.

1 Peter 1v1 ........ To God’s elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, .........

God knows the end from the beginning that is When we are only at the beginning God knows the end.

If it was God's choice then every one would be saved. Man disobeyed by his will, he has to obey by his will. Not God's will.

[streetsinger]

Jay Dub, as scripture says, we see as through a glass darkly; 1 Cor. 13:12 we reach our conclusions through study, revelation and occasionally the arena of debate. The question of choice has always been a contentious issue and will probably continue to be so; I pray it will not lessen our regard for one another. Paul, before his conversion chose to persecute believers, he chose to hold the coats while Stephen was being murdered and chose to set off in search of Christians in Damascus. When, on that journey he met Jesus, Jesus blinded him and he had no choice but to go to Straight Street and have Ananias heal him. Was it meeting Jesus or the miracle that caused him to believe and was choice indeed an issue here? After conversion, his attitude changed and he confessed his inability to overcome his sin and he acknowledged his need to be rescued by Jesus; Acts 9: 3-19 in Paul’s case, was it choice, or a life changing event that superseded choice? Zacchaeus climbed a tree to get a look at Jesus; Luke 19:1-9. He didn't know Jesus, they had never met; he just wanted to get a good vantage point, when Jesus referred to him by name it affected him in such a way that he instantly changed. Again was it choice or something far greater? Peter in Luke 5: 4-11 was totally amazed when Jesus told him to cast his net in a place where he knew, as a fisherman there were no fish, and then caught so many that the boat started to sink. He didn’t choose Jesus, he told him to go away because, as he said, “I am a sinful man” It was Jesus in this instance that reassured and chose him. Again this was a miraculous event that was far greater than a situation of choice. In my own case, God’s voice spoke into my Spirit and challenged me; my condition at the time left me no alternative but to accept the challenge. In all these situations one could be pedantic and point out, that although there was in fact no choice with regards to equality of fulfillment, a choice in fact had to be made. My question to you and Bloodbought; is why is it so important for you to feel that you need choice. It seems to me that choice is a prerequisite to retaining self and self is what we are called to
let go of; Matthew 16:25 If God requires choice and man has that choice; why does this not apply to all men? Luke 8:10

[Jay Dub]

Jay Dub, as scripture says, we see as through a glass darkly; 1 Cor. 13:12 we reach our conclusions through study, revelation and occasionally the arena of debate. The question of choice has always been a contentious issue and will probably continue to be so; I pray it will not lessen our regard for one another.

I hope that when I come to these forums, I don't let pride get in the way of the truth and that I never loose regard for a brother in Christ. It has always been a pleasure discussing scripture with you, even when we disagree

why is it so important for you to feel that you need choice. It seems to me that choice is a prerequisite to retaining self and self is what we are called to
let go of; Matthew 16:25

It is a good post and you make very good points, but it is not about my feelings about self,that has us discussing this. It is more my feelings for my God and Father, that has us talking about our will or our freedom to choose

I have only been giving you my feelings on this and I wish I could express them better, but let me try with scripture and see if you can help me through

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, `Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "

Here we see God's will was to gather his children, but they were not willing

Acts 7:51 "[You] stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers [did], so [do] you. 52 "Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 "who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept [it]."

If we are not free to choose how can they resist the Holy Spirit? Why is the Holy Spirit working in them, if it is not Gods will for them to be saved

John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
Who's will?

1 Timothy 2:3
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there] [is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


It is because of scriptures like these, I find it hard to believe, that we are without a choice

If God is not willing any should perish, then why do so many take the wide road that leads to destruction?

I believe that God is in full control of my life, he knows the numbers of the hairs on my head, yet I believe somehow, I am still free to choose. It may sound foolish, but that is how I see it

Both have to be true or to me the scriptures contradict themselves
How can a God of love punish those without choices. You see, it is not about retaining self, but about how I see our loving Father. It is his will that non should perish.

[Bloodbought]

dear Richard

God gave Adam a free wil lin the garden of Eden. It is important to God that we worship him willingly.

Adam disobeyed God by his own choice. Just as God did not force Adam to repent when he sinned so he does not force any one to repent. It is up to the individual to repent of his sin and acknowledge the Lord ship of Christ. It is like the bond slaves in the O.T. They willing went to have their ear peirced as a sign of willing obedience when they could have gone free.

Paul on the Damascus Road had a choice. He could go into the city and search out Annanias or carry on his mission to destroy the Christians.

We all have a free will until we surrender that will to Christ.

[streetsinger]

Jay Dub, it seems to me that we have both put our points regarding freedom of choice and it seems we are entrenched in our views with an unlikelihood of reaching agreement. Our views are now in open forum for people, if they wish, to consider. Thanks for an interesting exchange.

Bloodbought, I think you'll find, when God forbade Adam to eat of the fruit, he intimated that Adam would, in fact, do so;

Genesis 2:17 (ANIV)
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

If Adam had choice, God would have said If you eat of it, not when.

As for Paul having the choice to go to Straight Street or continuing persecuting the Christians, I should imagine he would have had a hard time persecuting Christians whilst unable to see.