Encouraging others to examine options- Power of Prayer Healing

[Neverfly]

I am going to start this OP with a story. This is a true story, however, for confidentiality I have left out all names. This is a close one- All parties involved I knew personally.

This story is about a lady who was diagnosed at 65 with cancer.
The first thing she did was visit her pastor and seek counsel on how to ask God for help in dealing with this.
He encouraged her to seek help with the Lord.
The years passed and the lady maintained her faith that the Lord would care for her.
But then her health failed. Suddenly and sharply.
The pastor organized weekly prayer meetings for her in which the congregation prayed for her.
One night, she went in for the meeting and was walking tall. She said she was blessed. She felt much better than she had in months.
Encouraged, the pastor started the prayer meeting with renewed vigor.
In fact they went two hours overtime.
It was intense. The congregation was tearful. The singing echoed across the silent Wednesday night...
And finally, the lady declared she felt the moving spirit move within her. She said that God told her she had been healed. They congregation almost blew the roof off of that poor building, rejoicing and praising the mercy and power of the Lord.

The next day she was admitted to the hospital.

She spent three days in excruciating agony. By the fourth day her slow lingering death finally finalized.

Now I'm sure there are many opinions about faith healing and I prefer to avoid discussing whether or not prayer can heal...

But rather to discuss ways to encourage folks, who believe that if they have enough faith, that they could be healed- to continue to seek medical treatment.

We have all heard the story about the lady that said, "If only I can touch his robe, I'll be healed."

But the robe is no more and in these modern times, sometimes the harsh reality is that having a blind faith without accepting all the facts of a situation can be harmful. As in the story above, Had she sought treatment, her closing agony could have been much prevented and alleviated. Namely by surgically removing the tumor.
The doctors said the operation would have been quite simple. No Chemotherapy should even be required.
HAD she had it treated in time. However, she ignored it and believed, faithfully, that she could be healed through prayer.

Are there scripture that counsel the wise to seek assistance?

How do you encourage someone to examine an idea that is based on faith that may ultimately prove harmful?


ETA: It is not uncommon for patients to suddenly exhibit remarkable improvement prior to death. The condition is an auto response by the brain in which it shuts down certain receptors shortly (A day or even hours) before death, This results in pain being alleviated and more alertness.

[onesiphorus]

2COR4:7to5:9....about
2COR12:8to10...about

will,expand,in,the,next,48hrs

Grace,and,peace,in,Christ

if,harmful,cannot,be,of,God,but,man

Wisdom,good,point,talk,again

[Neverfly]

Originally Posted by onesiphorus

2COR4:7to5:9....about
2COR12:8to10...about

will,expand,in,the,next,48hrs

Grace,and,peace,in,Christ

if,harmful,cannot,be,of,God,but,man

Wisdom,good,point,talk,again

To help out:

2 Corinthians 4:7-5:7
8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken."[a]With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2 Corinthians 5
Our Heavenly Dwelling
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight.

2 Corinthians 12:8-10 (NIV)
8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[gibby]

I am always careful when someone states, "God told me this or that." I once had an aquaintance who told me that God told him that I was going to be his assistant pastor. Funny...God never told me that. Well, I was not about to make a huge life change based on someone stating that God told them something. I believe God speaks to us primarily through His word and it is not lined up with His word, it's probably not from God. For example, if I feel a stirring in my spirit to feed the poor (by giving to a minstry, for instance) I can feel confident that it is the Holy Spirit speaking to me and I would obey. I have never heard an audible voice of someone (namely God) saying "do this or that", I usually recall a key verse or scripture and feel a stirring in my spirit to act based on God's word.

Also, I believe God uses doctors and their giftings in the healing process too.

[liberated]

Originally Posted by Neverfly

I am going to start this OP with a story. This is a true story, however, for confidentiality I have left out all names. This is a close one- All parties involved I knew personally.



Now I'm sure there are many opinions about faith healing and I prefer to avoid discussing whether or not prayer can heal...

But rather to discuss ways to encourage folks, who believe that if they have enough faith, that they could be healed- to continue to seek medical treatment.

We have all heard the story about the lady that said, "If only I can touch his robe, I'll be healed."

But the robe is no more and in these modern times, sometimes the harsh reality is that having a blind faith without accepting all the facts of a situation can be harmful. As in the story above, Had she sought treatment, her closing agony could have been much prevented and alleviated. Namely by surgically removing the tumor.
The doctors said the operation would have been quite simple. No Chemotherapy should even be required.
HAD she had it treated in time. However, she ignored it and believed, faithfully, that she could be healed through prayer.

Are there scripture that counsel the wise to seek assistance?

How do you encourage someone to examine an idea that is based on faith that may ultimately prove harmful?


ETA: It is not uncommon for patients to suddenly exhibit remarkable improvement prior to death. The condition is an auto response by the brain in which it shuts down certain receptors shortly (A day or even hours) before death, This results in pain being alleviated and more alertness.

I agree, if a person doesn't have faith to be healed they should have medical help after all we want people to get better whatever way they can.
I thank God for medical science.
Even if a person is standing in faith for healing, they should keep taking their medication until their healing is manifested.
medicetion won't heal you, or won't stop God healing you, but it will keep the simptons down, and to some people it is easier to believe when there is no pain.
Some people think that they are in faith and don't get healed because they weren't in faith, they were in hope. Hope is
"A Joyful expectation, eagerly waiting for their desires to be fulfilled".
faith believes, I have it,
Mark 11: 24,
"Whatsoever things you desire when you pray, believe that you have already received it, and you shall have it".
Hope is a waiter. Faith is areceiver.
find out where your Faith is before you take action, or don't take action as the case may be.

[Neverfly]

Originally Posted by gibby

I am always careful when someone states, "God told me this or that." I once had an aquaintance who told me that God told him that I was going to be his assistant pastor. Funny...God never told me that. Well, I was not about to make a huge life change based on someone stating that God told them something. I believe God speaks to us primarily through His word and it is not lined up with His word, it's probably not from God. For example, if I feel a stirring in my spirit to feed the poor (by giving to a minstry, for instance) I can feel confident that it is the Holy Spirit speaking to me and I would obey. I have never heard an audible voice of someone (namely God) saying "do this or that", I usually recall a key verse or scripture and feel a stirring in my spirit to act based on God's word.

Also, I believe God uses doctors and their giftings in the healing process too.

I agree.
I make no claim that a God will not "speak" to a person.

But rationality suggests that a person must examine whether or not they truly feel they have witnessed a sign, or are justifying their own desires.

Originally Posted by liberated

I agree, if a person doesn't have faith to be healed they should have medical help after all we want people to get better whatever way they can.

Liberated, you are suggesting that faith alone can heal a person if they just have enough faith?
This is the very problem I speak of.
I have found no evidence that any serious or major illness (In recent times with proper documentation) has ever been healed by miraculous faith. None.
Although there are a lot of stories floating around that it has occurred, doctors often debunk these claims and many are exaggerated.
Some are Urban Legends that have no documentation whatsoever.

This old lady believed this same thing- If She Just Had Enough Faith.
So can you handwaive the fact the she (inevitably) died from an untreated tumor by claiming that she must, therefore, have lacked faith? That is as much an assumption that faith heals: You have no evidence that she lacked faith. You cannot provide any evidence that she lacked faith other than that she died. I can attribute her death to the tumor- No divine intervention required.
Occam's Razor makes it simpler. She died because she had an untreated tumor in her skull.

Originally Posted by liberated

I thank God for medical science.

Agree on this point. Through-out the ages innovation and progress to improve our lives and medicine can only be attributed to a Love for Humanity. God is representative of Love.

Originally Posted by liberated

Even if a person is standing in faith for healing, they should keep taking their medication until their healing is manifested.

Then, which did the healing?

Originally Posted by liberated

medication(sic) won't heal you, or won't stop God healing you, but it will keep the symptoms(sic) down, and to some people it is easier to believe when there is no pain.

Agreed to a point. Some medications, like anti-bacterial drugs (Anti-biotics) will effectively heal you.
Some medications like anti-viral (Flu medicine) is purely symptom relief.
Again, I can attribute this healing to the bodies Immuno-response. No Divine Intervention required.
Some medications provide symptom relief but the illness is too severe for the immune system to fight. Or like Cancer, there is no cure.
I will not claim that faith healing cannot happen at this point, but rather refer to it as not falsifiable.
Some medications are for the treatment of Mental disorders and chemical imbalances. Again- these are symptom relief. They attempt to correct the Imbalance or at least to give the patient some control back over themselves.
No mentally ill patient has ever been documented as healed by faith. In fact, in psychology, it is extremely important that mentally ill patients seek help! They cannot overcome mental illness by a force of will.

Originally Posted by liberated

Some people think that they are in faith and don't get healed because they weren't in faith, they were in hope. Hope is
"A Joyful expectation, eagerly waiting for their desires to be fulfilled".
faith believes, I have it,
Mark 11: 24,
"Whatsoever things you desire when you pray, believe that you have already received it, and you shall have it".
Hope is a waiter. Faith is a receiver.(sic)
find out where your Faith is before you take action, or don't take action as the case may be.

I find these scriptures to be dangerous.

They teach people that they can be healed by faith alone. The story in the OP demonstrates the futility of the effort.
Your answer strikes me as a justification for a self fulfilling prophecy.



Over-all, Liberated, I like the way you think. Please don't think my words were directed at you harshly- perhaps you can consider the way that I think.

But you balance faith with medicine and I think that practice you speak of is at least healthy for your body and spirit.
It is the implication of the scripture that, when it is taken to extremes, ultimately seems to be harmful.

[liberated]

Originally Posted by Neverfly

I agree.
I make no claim that a God will not "speak" to a person.

But rationality suggests that a person must examine whether or not they truly feel they have witnessed a sign, or are justifying their own desires.



Liberated, you are suggesting that faith alone can heal a person if they just have enough faith?
This is the very problem I speak of.
I have found no evidence that any serious or major illness (In recent times with proper documentation) has ever been healed by miraculous faith. None.
Although there are a lot of stories floating around that it has occurred, doctors often debunk these claims and many are exaggerated.
Some are Urban Legends that have no documentation whatsoever.

This old lady believed this same thing- If She Just Had Enough Faith.
So can you handwaive the fact the she (inevitably) died from an untreated tumor by claiming that she must, therefore, have lacked faith? That is as much an assumption that faith heals: You have no evidence that she lacked faith. You cannot provide any evidence that she lacked faith other than that she died. I can attribute her death to the tumor- No divine intervention required.
Occam's Razor makes it simpler. She died because she had an untreated tumor in her skull.

Agree on this point. Through-out the ages innovation and progress to improve our lives and medicine can only be attributed to a Love for Humanity. God is representative of Love.


Then, which did the healing?

Agreed to a point. Some medications, like anti-bacterial drugs (Anti-biotics) will effectively heal you.
Some medications like anti-viral (Flu medicine) is purely symptom relief.
Again, I can attribute this healing to the bodies Immuno-response. No Divine Intervention required.
Some medications provide symptom relief but the illness is too severe for the immune system to fight. Or like Cancer, there is no cure.
I will not claim that faith healing cannot happen at this point, but rather refer to it as not falsifiable.
Some medications are for the treatment of Mental disorders and chemical imbalances. Again- these are symptom relief. They attempt to correct the Imbalance or at least to give the patient some control back over themselves.
No mentally ill patient has ever been documented as healed by faith. In fact, in psychology, it is extremely important that mentally ill patients seek help! They cannot overcome mental illness by a force of will.

I find these scriptures to be dangerous.

They teach people that they can be healed by faith alone. The story in the OP demonstrates the futility of the effort.
Your answer strikes me as a justification for a self fulfilling prophecy.



Over-all, Liberated, I like the way you think. Please don't think my words were directed at you harshly- perhaps you can consider the way that I think.

But you balance faith with medicine and I think that practice you speak of is at least healthy for your body and spirit.
It is the implication of the scripture that, when it is taken to extremes, ultimately seems to be harmful.

[1] Faith alone
we have a choice to either believe what God has said about healing, or believe in our own experience. someone once said to me, "I believe in the scriptures you said about healing, But in my experience". You see they were going by their experience, and not God's word.
Many people have a problem with healing by faith in God. Personaly I have no problem, partly because from the very first time I was born again I saw healings and miracles. In fact it was my mother getting healed that drew me to Church, All of a sudden she was looking healthy and happy, I was a bit concerned and went to see what she was getting herself into. After 3 weeks of going to this Church I got born again. And from that moment in 1975, I have seen healings all the time.

now let me show you God said about faith and healing.
We have seen Mk 11: 24, "whatsoever things you desire [Including healing] when you pray: BELIEVE that you have received, and you shall have them".

Mark 16: 17--18,
v17 These signs SHALL accompany them that BELIEVE, in My name
v18 They SHALL lay hands on the sick, and they SHALL recover.

James 5: 14--15,
v14 Is any sick among? let him call for the elders of the Church: and let him pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
v15 And the prayer of FAITH shall save [heal] the sick.
In Acts 3; after a lame man was healed it says in v 16, "By FAITH in the name of Jesus has made this man strong [healed]
These are just some of the scriptures that mention healing by faith.

This power is still in the church today.
Ephesians 3: 20--21.
v20 Now unto Him that is able to do exeeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us.
v21 Unto Him be glory in the Church throughout ALL AGES, world without end.

Jesus said in Matthew 28, I am with you until the end of the age.
The Church still has the mighty name of Jesus.

[2] When I said about medication I ment those who are incurable and are standing on the word of God for their healing.
I know God has given us a wonderful body that can heal itself especialy with the help of medication.
Even though the body can heal itself with or without medication, God still wants them to be healed quicker, because He loves us so much. if you had a child that was suffering wouldn't you want the child to get better as soon as possibe.. God said, "If you being natual perants want to give good things to your children. HOW MUCH more does God". read Matthew 7: 7--11.
I would consider healing a good thing.

[3] You said, To teach people to be healed by faith alone is dangerous.
Healing by faith in God's word alone is never dangerous, the oposite is dangerous, to die without faith in God for your healing.
Faith comes by hearing God's word "Romans 10: 17. but you do have find out if people are in faith, hope or persumption.
some people persume that if they stop taking medication, God has to heal them. No, God said "Believe". not persume.
Some people think that the are in faith because they are joyfully expecting God to heal them. That is hope, not faith, hope is a joyful expectation.
We do need to have hope because it is a springboard to faith.
Faith is the substance of things hope for. Hebrews 11: 1,
Faith is the only way to receive from God. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11: 1.
so if you believe God for your healing, faith is your evidence.

Jesus died in pain and agony for our sins and our sicknesses.
Isaiah 53: 4--5,
v4 Surely He [Jesus] has bourne OUR greifs [Sicknesses] and carried OUR sorrows [Pains]
v5 He [Jesus] was wounded for OUR transgressions, bruised for OUR iniquities: the chastisment of OUR peace was upon Him; and by His stripes [The whipping that He took] WE ARE HEALED.

Matthew 8: 1--17. Is all about divine healing for the body, and in v 17, it says. "

"That it might be fulfiled which wa spoken by Isaiah the Prophet [Isaiah 53]. saying, himself [Jesus] took OUR infirmities, and bare OUR sicknesses.

1 Peter 2: 24. "By His [Jesus] stripes [whippings] WE were healed.
Three things to notice here.
[1] These are three accounts of the death and suffering of Jesus,
[2] Isaiah 53, Had a revelation of Jesus on the cross, before Jesus died and said. "By His stripes we are heald",
1 Peter 2: 24. Looking back after the death of Jesus, said,
"By whose stripes we WERE [Past tense] healed. The price is already paid for youe healing, and what a price, Dying in agony being whipped open, Jesus said. "I can see all my bones, The Hebrew word for "Stripes" is "Stripe" Singular, He was whipped so much it was like one big stripe, Jesus could see all his bones.
and people today still reject healing.
[3] 1 Peter 2: 24, When Peter says "By Jesus's stripes we were heald,".
The Greek word for "Heald" is used 28 times in the New Testament, and every time it about Divine healing for the physical body. Some people say it is Spiritual healing, But our spirits don't need healing, we are born again, new creatures in Christ, born of the Spirit of God.

Faith comes by hearing God's word Rom 10: 17, when someone is teaching on healing, faith will come for healing. Maybe the Church that the lady you mentioned went to never fully taught on healing
Reading you story, she wasn't.
[A] she asked for council, had the Pastor taught on healing she would have known how to be healed.
[b] The Pastor encouraged her to seek help from the Lord, why couldn't he help. Maybe he didn't know that much about healing.
[C] when they thought she was healed, they rejoiced as if this was something new.
[d] The Pastor had a renewed vigor. If he new about healing he wouldn't have so suprised at this wonderfull new avent.

Sadly the Churches that believe that Jesus heals through their faith are in the minority.

[Neverfly]

I can see you put a lot of thought into your reply.

I am a bit cautious about nitpicking it apart for fear that you may think I am trying to either prove or disprove something.

My intent is Neither.

My intent is to create awareness about medical conditions, their severity and the that they must be open to options.

However, I cannot in good conscious NOT address all the issues you have said.
But I must admit, the patience and calm responses I have gotten from everyone who has replied to me so far in one day is admirable and very becoming of Christians.

Ok, I have a job to do:
I may remove portions so that I may focus on key elements in your statements. If you feel that this undermines your quote or detracts from you statements ( I misunderstand things from time to time) please tell me and I will restore your quotes to full

Originally Posted by liberated

[1] Faith alone
we have a choice to either believe what God has said about healing, or believe in our own experience. someone once said to me, "I believe in the scriptures you said about healing, But in my experience". You see they were going by their experience, and not God's word.

This is a very worthy point. Anecdotal evidence does not necessarily constitute evidence.

Originally Posted by liberated

Many people have a problem with healing by faith in God. Personaly I have no problem, partly because from the very first time I was born again I saw healings and miracles. In fact it was my mother getting healed that drew me to Church, All of a sudden she was looking healthy and happy, I was a bit concerned and went to see what she was getting herself into. After 3 weeks of going to this Church I got born again. And from that moment in 1975, I have seen healings all the time.

Trouble is... that your very worthy point now comes back to haunt you. It applies to you just as much as it applies to me.

You may think you have seen healings. But I can also point out that I have witnessed many healings and miracles that were:
Misunderstood medical processes.(known)
Scams. (Yes, it happens not always of course)
Placebo effect.
Euphoria and mass hysteria.
Enthusiasm to please and justify faith.
Unknown causes.

The last on the list is by far rare and the minority.
I cannot deny that this could be Faith Healing.
This does not prove faith has healed anyone though. It means that we just don't know what happened.
To me, Occam's razor suggests that since there are known medical recovery processes, there can be unknown ones as well.

Originally Posted by liberated

now let me show you God said about faith and healing.
(series of quoted scripture follows)

You have shown me nothing. I have seen no documentation of doctor reviewed cases of faith healings.
I have seen no cites, examples or evidence that the power exists.
You say it does. Well I can say that I'm actually a can of Cheez Whiz. Without evidence- it is only a statement.

Originally Posted by liberated

[2] When I said about medication I meant(sic) those who are incurable and are standing on the word of God for their healing.
I know God has given us a wonderful body that can heal itself especially(sic) with the help of medication.
Even though the body can heal itself with or without medication, God still wants them to be healed quicker, because He loves us so much. if you had a child that was suffering wouldn't you want the child to get better as soon as possible(sic).. God said, "If you being natural(sic) parents(sic) want to give good things to your children. HOW MUCH more does God". read Matthew 7: 7--11.
I would consider healing a good thing.

I agree. this again is that balance I spoke of earlier. I do not see this as harmful and in fact, practice it with my own son. he is Young yet and deserves to know about faith and God. I will not hold back science from him either but I want him to have ALL the background that he may choose his faith accordingly (Yes, he goes to church too)

Originally Posted by liberated

[3] You said, To teach people to be healed by faith alone is dangerous.

So far I must maintain that.

Originally Posted by liberated

Healing by faith in God's word alone is never dangerous, the opposite(sic) is dangerous, to die without faith in God for your healing.

You say later in your post that it is not spiritual healing but physical. Yet, here, you said to die without faith in the healing?
Well if they died- they didn't get a whole lot of healing did they?

The OP demonstrates that this statement is in grave error. You said 'never' dangerous yet the OP shows that it was at least one time.
More on this later.

Originally Posted by liberated

Faith comes by hearing God's word "Romans 10: 17. but you do have find out if people are in faith, hope or presumption(sic).
some people presume that if they stop taking medication, God has to heal them. No, God said "Believe". not presume.

I agree that would be a problem.
But what we are discussing here is the Faith - that in Having the faith to be healed- is dangerous.
Some people Don't stop taking the medication on any presumptions but maintain a firm strong belief that they will be healed. Yet they aren't.
You can then claim that they didn't have ENOUGH faith....
It's the invisible dog argument. However I try to point out there there is no such thing as an invisible dog, all you have to do is say I'm not looking hard enough.

Originally Posted by liberated

Some people think that the are in faith because they are joyfully expecting God to heal them. That is hope, not faith, hope is a joyful expectation.
We do need to have hope because it is a springboard to faith.
Faith is the substance of things hope for. Hebrews 11: 1,
Faith is the only way to receive from God. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11: 1.
so if you believe God for your healing, faith is your evidence.

Until you aren't healed and someone says you must have been in presumption or in hope instead.
Self fulfilling prophecy.
No matter how it turns out you can say you aren't looking for the invisible dog hard enough.

Originally Posted by liberated

Jesus died in pain and agony for our sins and our sicknesses.
Isaiah 53: 4--5,
v4 Surely He [Jesus] has bourne OUR greifs [Sicknesses] and carried OUR sorrows [Pains]

What are these in brackets? Implications? The words in the scripture do not say sickness and pains.
I can stick brackets in there too:
Isaiah 53: 4--5,
v4 Surely He [Jesus] has bourne OUR greifs [Lost family members] and carried OUR sorrows [financial concerns]

Originally Posted by liberated

v5 He [Jesus] was wounded for OUR transgressions, bruised for OUR iniquities: the chastisment of OUR peace was upon Him; and by His stripes [The whipping that He took] WE ARE HEALED.
(follows is scripture about Christs crucification resulting in our healing)
The Greek word for "Heald" is used 28 times in the New Testament, and every time it about Divine healing for the physical body. Some people say it is Spiritual healing, But our spirits don't need healing, we are born again, new creatures in Christ, born of the Spirit of God.

1.) this is not evidence nor proof still, that healing is done by faith. You have cited your BELIEFS but I can cite beliefs in the Monkey God that if I believe enough a thousand bushels of bananas will be delivered to my doorstep.
2.) You differentiate between spiritual and physical healing here. It contradicts itself. By citing scripture that says we are cleansed and healed by the crucification- then isn't THAT the process of becoming born again?
Your spirits DO need healing to become Born Again.
Therefore, it was used up in the Born Again process and so it doesn't apply to the physical.

Originally Posted by liberated

Faith comes by hearing God's word Rom 10: 17, when someone is teaching on healing, faith will come for healing. Maybe the Church that the lady you mentioned went to never fully taught on healing
Reading you story, she wasn't.
[A] she asked for council, had the Pastor taught on healing she would have known how to be healed.
[b] The Pastor encouraged her to seek help from the Lord, why couldn't he help. Maybe he didn't know that much about healing.
[C] when they thought she was healed, they rejoiced as if this was something new.
[d] The Pastor had a renewed vigor. If he new about healing he wouldn't have so surprised at this wonderful new event(sic).

Again, you are justifying the self fulfilling prophecy.
Your claim is that since she was not healed- the faith must have been misplaced or lacking.
This is an assumption on your part based on maintaining your belief that faith heals.
You have interviewed none of the witnesses.
You were not present.
you have no records of the event.
You cannot interview the deceased to determine what and how her faith was.

You are justifying your claim with an absence of evidence.

By this logic, I can say that if I believe Strongly enough and Correctly enough and (matt7:7) ask God to drive the car for me while I take a nap in the drivers seat- and then I crash and burn- My faith wasn't strong enough that God could be a copilot.
I have a simpler explanation.
Crashed when I fell asleep at the wheel.

Originally Posted by liberated

Sadly the Churches that believe that Jesus heals through their faith are in the minority.

Perhaps there is a reason for this.


So far this is neither proven nor disproven.

It remains dangerous to rely on the invisible driver while you nap at the wheel.

ETA: So far none of my statements claim that God doesn't exist.
I have carefully pointed out a couple times that I cannot disprove faith by healing- Even though I do not believe it exists- Even citing scripture does not contradict my belief Even if I say there is a God, just these scriptures do not demonstrate that he Heals in this manner.

These statements simply say that we must maintain personal responsibility for ourselves, our choices and our health.

[Neverfly]

Liberated,
We have both presented two sides and feel free to offer a rebuttel.

I would also prefer to discuss too however, ways of encouraging folks to look to their medicine and not solely rely on faith healing.

Also- what scriptures can I offer to a believer that might encourage them to accept personal responsibility to take decisive action to maintaining their health and not just asking God to do it?