the accusation to God

[streetsinger]

I think it's quite important to remember that Satan and his angels never created anything, nor " will " they create anything. They will not be allowed to continue to live. They will be destroyed and they will have an end.

Satan has never had the same power, and it is clear from the Scripture that the evil angels literally shook with fright when they confronted Christ while He was on the Earth.

Luke 4:33-35

Matthew 8:28-29

James 2:19

My question of...




arises from the story of Job, in that he is forced to consider, from an earthly point of view, why all sorts of bad things are happening to him and the impression is given that Satan's ownership of the earth depends upon everyone being subject to Satan's leading.
It appears to me that this war between God and Satan depends upon the allegiance of people. If Job continues to follow God then God has the advantage, on the other hand, if Job listened to his wife and friends and cursed God, then Satan would have had the advantage.

One thing I would like to know is, is Scripture silent on the subject of what Satan did to the angels to have them rebel against God? What did he say to them that would make them fight against God Himself?

I believe God already knew that Job would not fall, that's why he invited Satan to try him. Job loved God, but had to pull out all the stops to survive the trial, survive it he did though, and came to realise the depth of his faith.
To answer your second point regarding the fallen angels. It's just a thought, but I thought I'd give it an airing. Satan, according to Jesus, is the prince of this world and, as such, is entitled to, the controlling influence on it's population. Within that population, there are an infinite variety of personalities of varying degrees of rebellion, God has shown me mine, and I had no defence, we all fall short. Could it be, these are also the rebellious personalities of the fallen angels, of whom Satan is the archetype, and being subject to their influences we bring those influences into our personalities, and thus into society? If a person invites Jesus into their heart, then through the influence of the Spirit of God, they bring his influences to bare in society, revealing the freedom and love he offers in Jesus.

[iamowen]

"I believe God already knew that Job would not fall, that's why he invited Satan to try him."
God did not invite satan to try him ! It was already in satans mind to do so !
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil? Job 1:8 (YLT)
Please don't accuse God of such evil, it is one place where the KJV is a little vague, but where in fact if you know the true meaning it is clear !
Hope this hasn't made things less clear !

[Lily]

God did not invite satan to try him ! It was already in satans mind to do so !

I agree, it was satans suggestion, God just allowed it because he knew Job's heart and knew Job would never turn against him.

satan is subject to God ( otherwise why would satan needs God's approval ? )
He can only do what God allows for God's purpose.
God is most definately in total control and satan had to be reminded that God is never wrong.

[smellycat]

then how has satan rebelled.?if you say he asks Gods aproval.?

he rebels by twisting Gods words and meanings.

[Lily]

Cat, my point is, satan, when in Job 1:6-12 went to God and suggested that he remove all of these blessings from Job and saying that Job will curse him, you think about what that is " really " saying. It's showing that satan " had " to ask God to remove his shield of protection from Job before he could blight him.


So that alone shows that satan is no equal to God because if he was, he wouldn't have had to ask this of God, he would have just gone and unleashed his torment on Job without saying a word to God.

satan could only do it with Gods permission ( verse 12 ) because try as he might, satan cannot breach God’s defenses of his children.

He was basically saying to God,,,
" Will you take these things away from Job and see if he will curse you to your face?”
He knew he couldn't do this unless God brought down the defenses to test Job.

Thats asking permission Cat and he can only do it if God permits it.

[smellycat]

i agree with you like jesus said where i,am is heaven,ie satan can,t bother you.

tottally agree he can,t hurt us when protected.

but in ahuman way way he can,ie blocking your path by others.using others who he can control to bother you.

[smellycat]

how did he pursuade the other angels.i think he had a cunning plan of how to own us,because we were fallen.with no connection directly to God,he could become god,and just do what he liked.

[Lily]

how did he pursuade the other angels.i think he had a cunning plan of how to own us,because we were fallen.with no connection directly to God,he could become god,and just do what he liked.

To be perfectly honest cat, I don't know and it's something I did wonder myself a few posts back.
Unless anyone can confirm what he said to them or how he did it, I'm sure Scripture is silent on how he actually convinced them to rebel against God.

This was streetsingers opinion on it,,,

To answer your second point regarding the fallen angels. It's just a thought, but I thought I'd give it an airing. Satan, according to Jesus, is the prince of this world and, as such, is entitled to, the controlling influence on it's population. Within that population, there are an infinite variety of personalities of varying degrees of rebellion, God has shown me mine, and I had no defence, we all fall short. Could it be, these are also the rebellious personalities of the fallen angels, of whom Satan is the archetype, and being subject to their influences we bring those influences into our personalities, and thus into society? If a person invites Jesus into their heart, then through the influence of the Spirit of God, they bring his influences to bare in society, revealing the freedom and love he offers in Jesus.

[Lily]

Here's a question I shall leave you to ponder Cat, because my eyes are dropping here and I need my sleep now.

The one third angels that satan convinced to rebel, any chance of redemption for them you think if they repent ?

Or do you think that even though angels have free will, they do not have the ability to repent, since unlike human beings, their intelligence is so great that they can fully comprehend the consequences of their actions ?

Bit like, they have actually looked into the face of God, if they disobey him then what excuse do they really have?

[streetsinger]

Job 1:6-12 (ANIV)
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. [7] The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the Lord, "From roaming through the earth and going to and fro in it."
[8] Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no-one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
[9] "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. [10] "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. [11] But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
[12] The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
Here we have Satan, coming before the Lord, Nothing is mentioned about Job until God brings him into the conversation. 'Have you considered my servant Job?' what was Satan's reply, 'have you not put a hedge round him and his household?' So God asks if Satan's considered, Satan comes back with yeah I've considered, but you've put a hedge around him and I can't get at him but stretch out your hand and take everything he has. What does God say? OK I'll allow you to take everything he has, but that's as far as you can go. I believe God used Satan do do what he wanted, Satan jumped at the offer but he, not being omnipresent, couldn't see the final outcome and so was outsmarted.